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“Set standard”

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“Set standard”

Old 21st May 2019, 09:40
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I treat the transition altitude and and thrust reduction altitude just like i used to on electro mechanical aircraft, i memorize it.
the children of magenta approach is to wait for the PFD to flash, for me thats to late.
they always end up reducing thrust at 1500’ instead instead of 1000’ takes them 500’ to reduce thrust.
On departure there should be awareness of TA which typically reflects the highest grid mora within that state.
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Old 21st May 2019, 09:52
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Thread creep I know but,IMHO,Worth thinking about flap problem whilst cleaning up.
Sure,you can't account for every problem whilst operating the aircraft in every phase of flight.However,when things start to go wrong,and you are no longer going to climb to that FL,I like to have a setting that agrees with where I am..
One less thing to cock up!
My previous airline SOP stated that if cleared to FL in predeparture clearance,to not set STD until Flaps retracted, for that very reason.
However,as soon as we were cleared to FL in the air,they still seemed to set STD,regardless of where the flaps were.

Same in descent,states side..FL340, cleared to 16,000..Perfectly legal to set QNH ,but how often is the descent clearance amended,and how tired are we in that descent if it's the end of a transatlantic flight.

MD83FO,I'm with you..

Last edited by Yaw String; 21st May 2019 at 12:35.
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Old 21st May 2019, 22:08
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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TA which typically reflects the highest grid mora within that state
not necessarily the case in EASA land
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Old 22nd May 2019, 05:33
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sierra_mike View Post
not necessarily the case in EASA land
I’ll take note SM
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Old 22nd May 2019, 07:30
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Our SOP is to set the altimeter setting passing the transition level. Very simple. Surprised at some of the SOPs being mentioned - just adds complexity to a very simple concept.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 08:31
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Same in descent,states side..FL340, cleared to 16,000..Perfectly legal to set QNH ,but how often is the descent clearance amended,and how tired are we in that descent if it's the end of a transatlantic flight.
AIM and PANSOPS both stipulate that you change altimeter setting at the TA in the climb and the TL in the descent. The PANSOPS exception is that QNH may be set above the TL when cleared for approach and descent has begun. Eurocontrol say:

ICAO PANS-OPS1 requires that the altimeter pressure setting should be changed to the new reference when crossing the transition altitude/level.
7.2. Some national authorities stipulate that, when an aircraft has been cleared to climb from an altitude to a flight level, vertical position will be reported in terms of flight level unless intermediate altitude reports have been specifically requested by ATC. Similarly when a pilot is descending from a flight level to an altitude the pilot will change to the aerodrome QNH unless further flight level vacating reports have been requested by ATC, in which case the QNH will be set following the final flight level vacating report.
https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/142.pdf
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Old 22nd May 2019, 08:56
  #27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Max Angle View Post
As I said in the post above you will not trigger climb mode by setting STD before the ACC altitude, the FMGS will reference QNH altitude below the TA that has been entered in the take-off perf. page.
This was the question I was actually asking! How does it know what the QNH altitude is? Does it go off what’s backset in the baro ref window, if you’ve already set standard? Because we don’t enter QNH anywhere on the MCDU before departure...
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Old 22nd May 2019, 09:41
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Our SOP is plain and simple.

Climbing and 1000ft below transition, we announce "1000 to Standard".
Descending and 1000ft below transition, we announce "1000 to Standard".

Set standard/altimeter setting when passing the transition altitude.
In US, of course it's 18000ft.

The announcements gives us a bit of added situational awareness.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:22
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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So your level bust mitigation strategy is to wait until transition before setting standard ??

How does that work on a light weight aircraft on a low QNH day when you are cleared to the first flight level (1000ft above TA). Wait for transition and wait for the ATC report that’s filed when you press STD and see you are already above the cleared level !

Come on guys TEM. Good luck in places like Amsterdam.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 20:31
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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How does that work on a light weight aircraft on a low QNH day when you are cleared to the first flight level (1000ft above TA). Wait for transition and wait for the ATC report that’s filed when you press STD and see you are already above the cleared level !
TL is derived from TA (which is constant for most of the places). TL is the lowest FL you will get from ATC (in terms of units FL with no other factors considered here). this calculation is to assure that the case you described is not an issue respectively separation between aircraft flying in TA and TL is assured. e.g. you have a TA of 10000ft, 1000ft buffer layer and a local QNH of 990. your TL will be FL120. if you switch settings at TA your altimeter will indicate ca. 10600ft at that moment. 1400ft to go to FL120 which is the lowest FL ATC can clear you (again in terms of unit FL no other factors considered here...).
would it be a clever idea to reduce your vertical speed before switching in that example...maybe yes

Last edited by sierra_mike; 22nd May 2019 at 22:28.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 20:46
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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How does it know what the QNH altitude is? Does it go off what’s backset in the baro ref window,
Exactly that, yes.
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Old 23rd May 2019, 08:26
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 8che View Post
So your level bust mitigation strategy is to wait until transition before setting standard ??

How does that work on a light weight aircraft on a low QNH day when you are cleared to the first flight level (1000ft above TA). Wait for transition and wait for the ATC report that’s filed when you press STD and see you are already above the cleared level !

Come on guys TEM. Good luck in places like Amsterdam.
Yes it is. In Europe and some other parts of the world, TA can vary, and is quite low. I hesitate to say that in the US, our system is better, but it's certainly simpler, and thus less prone to error.

I've heard talk about simplifying it to a single level for years now. What could possibly be so difficult? Look at the highest terrain in the region, and set it a few thousand feet above that.
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Old 23rd May 2019, 13:08
  #33 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
I hesitate to say that in the US, our system is better, but it's certainly simpler, and thus less prone to error.
And thus, better it is.
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Old 23rd May 2019, 20:02
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
Yes it is. In Europe and some other parts of the world, TA can vary, and is quite low. I hesitate to say that in the US, our system is better, but it's certainly simpler, and thus less prone to error.

I've heard talk about simplifying it to a single level for years now. What could possibly be so difficult? Look at the highest terrain in the region, and set it a few thousand feet above that.
Yeah, flew for a few years in turboprops without any RNAV in Europe, was always fun flying low between Belfast, Isle-of-man and Liverpool , trying to figure out when you went from 4.000ft to FL040....

I know you have to set local QNH the for lower level flights in the USA, but the differences between area altimeter settings are most often a lot smaller than between QNH and QNE.

Last edited by hans brinker; 24th May 2019 at 06:16.
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Old 24th May 2019, 12:06
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
I've heard talk about simplifying it to a single level for years now. What could possibly be so difficult?
We can't even convince ATC to use English language only for safety reasons in many places, including airports with 400k+ movements a year.

And you think getting a unified TA would be easy?

Last edited by FlyingStone; 24th May 2019 at 12:07. Reason: Typo
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Old 24th May 2019, 12:41
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone View Post
We can't even convince ATC to use English language only for safety reasons in many places, including airports with 400k+ movements a year.

And you think getting a unified TA would be easy?
I guess not, but who knows...

Towards a Common Transition Altitude
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