Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

“Set standard”

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

“Set standard”

Old 17th May 2019, 21:38
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 211
“Set standard”

When departing under NADP1, in an A320, I was told not to set standard until reaching acceleration altitude. This often means reading back “climb FLIGHT LEVEL xxx” and then setting xx,000 and reading “xx,000 blue”, waiting until Acc. Alt to then set standard. Recently I had someone say that it doesn’t matter if you set standard before Acc. alt.

Anyone know definitively, and / or have a reference?

Busdriver01 is offline  
Old 17th May 2019, 22:19
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: CASEY STATION
Posts: 175
FCOM says to set STD at transition altitude. Are you saying you want to set it early just so you can callout a FL display on the PFD?

What happens if ATC amend the climb instruction to level off below transition due traffic and you have STD already set ?
RUMBEAR is online now  
Old 18th May 2019, 02:44
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,461
If you’ve pre set your ACC Alt to say 3000’ then setting STD early will mean that the aircraft will now accelerate at FL030 which will be early or late depending on the QNH (unless of course it is 1013)
EGPFlyer is online now  
Old 18th May 2019, 06:23
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 496
Originally Posted by RUMBEAR View Post
FCOM says to set STD at transition altitude. Are you saying you want to set it early just so you can callout a FL display on the PFD?

What happens if ATC amend the climb instruction to level off below transition due traffic and you have STD already set ?
There is a school of thought that one should set QNH during descent as soon as one is given an altitude not at transition. A number of airlines follow this procedure.
Airmann is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 13:24
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Having a margarita on the beach
Age: 100
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
When departing under NADP1, in an A320, I was told not to set standard until reaching acceleration altitude. This often means reading back “climb FLIGHT LEVEL xxx” and then setting xx,000 and reading “xx,000 blue”, waiting until Acc. Alt to then set standard. Recently I had someone say that it doesn’t matter if you set standard before Acc. alt.

Anyone know definitively, and / or have a reference?

Set standard when passing transition altitude. Imagine You are departing passing 2000 ft the ATC says "Climb FL180" (no constraints) You will set 18000 ft and call "18000" blue. When passing the TA 18000 will become FL180. Now if You find some weirdo who says "Oh but ATC said to climb FL180 and the PFD says 18000" tell him there is no need to panic, to keep on breathing, and when passing TA You will call for set standard.
sonicbum is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 19:22
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: on theEdge...
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by sonicbum View Post
Set standard when passing transition altitude. Imagine You are departing passing 2000 ft the ATC says "Climb FL180" (no constraints) You will set 18000 ft and call "18000" blue. When passing the TA 18000 will become FL180. Now if You find some weirdo who says "Oh but ATC said to climb FL180 and the PFD says 18000" tell him there is no need to panic, to keep on breathing, and when passing TA You will call for set standard.
CORRRRECT !!
TheEdge is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 19:34
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: London,England
Posts: 1,272
If you’ve pre set your ACC Alt to say 3000’ then setting STD early will mean that the aircraft will now accelerate at FL030 which will be early or late depending on the QNH (unless of course it is 1013)
Not true, below the transition alt. entered in the perf. page the FMGS will reference altitude regardless of what is set in the baro ref. window. You can set STD whenever you like, as long as SRS is still engaged (ie. you haven't pulled open climb) the aircraft will accelerate at the correct time.
Max Angle is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 20:32
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: France
Posts: 177
Set standard when passing transition altitude
Or you could follow whatever the company SOP says, which in every airline I've worked for has been to set STD as soon as cleared to a FL.
akindofmagic is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 21:30
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Having a margarita on the beach
Age: 100
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by akindofmagic View Post
Or you could follow whatever the company SOP says, which in every airline I've worked for has been to set STD as soon as cleared to a FL.
Of course, it goes without saying.
sonicbum is offline  
Old 18th May 2019, 21:42
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: U.K.
Posts: 87
I am assuming the reason why this question is asked is because of the relation Setting STD has to the FMA's on the PFD. To state the obvious when flying NAPD you remain in MAN FLX SRS until you have climbed through the NAPD1 altitude you have selected in the Perf page of the FMGC.

There will be some cases with a low QNH that if you were to Set STD whilst still in the NAPD 1 phase, thus climbing via SRS, that setting Standard would cause the aircraft to go from an altitude of 2,700 to FL30 straight away, which is only a QNH change of roughly 10 hPA.

If you selected 3,000 as your ACC altitude in the Perf Page to comply with NAPD 1 then by setting STD, in this case, you will have trigged the aircraft to enter CLIMB mode earlier slightly early, and thus not completing NAPD1, beginning the reduction in nose attitude and the increase in speed.
TheAirMission is online now  
Old 19th May 2019, 08:14
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Having a margarita on the beach
Age: 100
Posts: 1,272
Talking about TA : "The paragraph 1.1.2.1.3 PANS-OPS, Aircraft Operations, Volume I, states that the height above the aerodrome of the transition altitude shall be as low as possible but normally not less than 900 m (3000ft)."
Does anybody have any reference of airports with TAs lower than 3000 ft AGL ? I can't seem to recall any.
sonicbum is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 12:24
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,349
Originally Posted by sonicbum View Post
Talking about TA : "The paragraph 1.1.2.1.3 PANS-OPS, Aircraft Operations, Volume I, states that the height above the aerodrome of the transition altitude shall be as low as possible but normally not less than 900 m (3000ft)."
Does anybody have any reference of airports with TAs lower than 3000 ft AGL ? I can't seem to recall any.
Learn something new every day. I wonder what the logic is. 3000ft is pretty low, and usually quite busy.
Check Airman is offline  
Old 19th May 2019, 15:25
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Having a margarita on the beach
Age: 100
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
Learn something new every day. I wonder what the logic is. 3000ft is pretty low, and usually quite busy.
Having everybody flying Flight Levels ensure the proper vertical separation without the need to constantly update the local QNH on the altimeter. AFAIK there is a project for a common TA in Europe like in the US but I don't know at what stage the project is.
sonicbum is offline  
Old 20th May 2019, 00:59
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 345
Don't forget practicality and reality. In the UK, for example, the TA is usually around 6000ft. If you've been cleared (passing 2000ft) to FL80, why wait to set STD? Is it more likely that ATC will suddenly re-clear you to A6000ft, or is it more likely that you'd forget to do it (distraction, whatever) and never make it to FL80. If ATC re-clear you lower, that is their mistake and they should reasonably expect you to take a few seconds (reasonably more than a few) to reconfigure the FCU for the new clearance.

WRT low transition altitudes, going into AMS, you will get cleared down to FL45 and maybe even lower. It's no big deal, you just fly it. On a procedural arrival/approach, more attention must be paid to the TA and it's significance should make up part of your brief, other than that, it isn't a big issue.
giggitygiggity is offline  
Old 20th May 2019, 07:41
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,349
Thanks sonicbum.

I must be missing something though. Why not just use the tools available? The altimeter setting will flash when you get to TA/TL. If the perf page is properly set up, why go through the mental gymnastics that some companies impose? Set your altimeter when passing TA/TL, and if you forget, the system will remind you.

Sounds simple enough. What am I missing here?

Last edited by Check Airman; 20th May 2019 at 12:02.
Check Airman is offline  
Old 20th May 2019, 08:20
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Having a margarita on the beach
Age: 100
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
Thanks sonicbum.

I must be missing something though. Why not just use the tools available? The altimeter setting will flash when you get to TA/TL. If the perf page is properly set up, why go through the mental gymnastics that some companies impose? Set your altimeter when passing TA/TL, and if you forget, the system will remind you.

Sounds simple enoug . What am I missing here?
Agree with You. One of our level bust mitigation strategies is for the PM to call “transition altitude” when passing the charted TA and the PF replies SET STANDARD. That proved to be quite helpful in situations where the TA was not properly set in the PERF page and was missed by the crew during the briefing. For descent we directly set the QNH when cleared to an altitude. Anyway I would not be against setting STD in climb directly when cleared to a FL if that was due to be a SOP change as I believe it does make sense to reduce the crew workload.
sonicbum is offline  
Old 20th May 2019, 20:37
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course
Posts: 2,104
Check Airman

Set your altimeter when passing TA/TL, and if you forget, the system will remind you.

Sounds simple enough. What am I missing here?
Sure, that's an option - for those aircraft with that feature, but not all have it and you have to cater for everyone, surely?

I go along with my (ex)operator and agree with the philosophy of changing setting when first cleared to a FL/Altitude when climbing/descending.

In 99+% of occasions the clearance will not change, so to change when cleared makes sense and to deal with the 1% as the exception.
TopBunk is offline  
Old 20th May 2019, 21:29
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: London,England
Posts: 1,272
If you selected 3,000 as your ACC altitude in the Perf Page to comply with NAPD 1 then by setting STD, in this case, you will have trigged the aircraft to enter CLIMB mode earlier slightly early, and thus not completing NAPD1, beginning the reduction in nose attitude and the increase in speed.
As I said in the post above you will not trigger climb mode by setting STD before the ACC altitude, the FMGS will reference QNH altitude below the TA that has been entered in the take-off perf. page.
Max Angle is offline  
Old 21st May 2019, 04:34
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,349
Originally Posted by TopBunk View Post
Check Airman



Sure, that's an option - for those aircraft with that feature, but not all have it and you have to cater for everyone, surely?

I go along with my (ex)operator and agree with the philosophy of changing setting when first cleared to a FL/Altitude when climbing/descending.

In 99+% of occasions the clearance will not change, so to change when cleared makes sense and to deal with the 1% as the exception.
The OP asked about the A320, so I figured it was safe to make that assumption. In any event, you're right. Do current generation Boeings (apart from the 767) not have a feature that prompts you to change altimeter settings?
Check Airman is offline  
Old 21st May 2019, 06:28
  #20 (permalink)  
swh

Eidolon
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Some hole
Posts: 1,922
Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
]Do current generation Boeings (apart from the 767) not have a feature that prompts you to change altimeter settings?
The FO usually, that is if they are not to busy on tinder, Whatsapp, or Instagram
swh is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.