Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

Captains responsibility

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

Captains responsibility

Old 24th Sep 2018, 14:26
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: MAN
Posts: 792
Captains responsibility

Being a Captain is a particularly challenging job on too many an occasion these days. I note the following story:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-baguette.html

A horrible situation for all involved and traumatic for the whole crew. I see the court is to take evidence from the Pilots and airline to establish whether a different course of action should have been taken by the Commander. Communications, weather, aircraft weight & position, etc, etc. all a factor but it serves to remind Pilots and Crew of the responsibility they undertake in the line of work. The Commander has to justify difficult decisions based on the safety and security of the whole aircraft and her passengers. Hope they are BALPA members
Dogma is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 15:53
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,889
Originally Posted by Dogma View Post
...Hope they are BALPA members
This is obviously a tragic story but it strikes me the young lady was the victim of a chain of events and to some degree the crew were put in a difficult situation because of the decisions and actions of others. As I understand it ATM we are talking about a coroner’s court and I don’t yet see the need for a call of arms to the Union.

In defence of the crew, if they need one: if the cabin crew acted iaw with their medical training (which would have included dealing with the victim of anaphylactic shock) and the captain had time to obtain, consider, and if it was safe to do so, act upon whatever professional medical advice was available I’d expect the airline management (even at BA) to back them up.

That said it would have been a horrible situation to try and manage.






Last edited by wiggy; 24th Sep 2018 at 16:20.
wiggy is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2018, 20:36
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Le Rouret
Posts: 2
I have been following this in The Sunday Times and The Times.

From the reports in the newspapers the incident occurred shortly after take-off. The articles state that a junior doctor was giving CPR. It is is difficult to understand why the commander continued on a 1h50 minute flight and did not divert to an en route airport of which there are many.

Isn't a Mayday, medical emergency, with medical assistance on arrival, normal procedure in such circumstances?
Rouretan is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 01:55
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 3,531
incident occurred shortly after take-off
The time line is important before anyone tries to stick it to the crew. She started feeling effects three minutes after eating the roll, which was prior to boarding, and took some allergy medication. They then boarded and thirty five minutes after take off they went to the toilet to use an epipen. It was at that point the cabin crew were alerted, after the lasses condition worsened. That is forty minutes after take off, not shortly after take. How long did it take for the doctor to assess the patient and what advice did he give the crew re a diversion? The coroner will assess all. The lesson to take from this is, if you are allergy prone and suspect you are having the beginnings of an attack, don't place yourself in a position where medical assistance may be difficult to access. It's a great pity that such lessons come at such great cost, a young lass with the world at her feet cut down.
megan is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 07:45
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,889
The time line is important before anyone tries to stick it to the crew.
Agreed megan..for example the LHR-NCE sector is typically around 90 minutes (runway to runway) so without knowing exactly what was said and exactly when it was said I think it is wrong to start drawing conclusions about decisions to return/divert/continue to destination.

Last edited by wiggy; 25th Sep 2018 at 08:00.
wiggy is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 07:49
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 466
The article states that the flight landed 50 minutes after CPR was started. 50 minutes! Over mainland Europe.

If that is accurate then some big questions will be asked at the he inquest regarding what information/ when the flight crew were informed, and the decisions made during this period.
Dct_Mopas is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 10:21
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,889
So far a lot of what has been reported in the UK press has come from the family, either by way of press releases or statements to the coroner. I don't know if anybody from the crew or BA has been called to give their account to the coroner yet but I've yet to see any account in the media from any of the crew or details such as what time any calls (if any) were made to the airline''s medical advisors..

If I may hark back in part to a point megan made earlier..behind all this there is the whole issue that the chain of events that led to this poor girls death seems to have been precipitated by decisions and actions made on the ground by individuals not involved with the airline....maybe that needs to be kept in mind...
wiggy is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 12:20
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 60 north
Age: 56
Posts: 20
Pack a lunch bag?

Sorry to say , but a girl with known SEVERE allergy to banana, milk products, nutts and sesame seeds should under no circumstances trust any food purchased at an airport terminal before boarding a flight shorter then , say 25 minutes.
Every second month I have someone faint or become ill. Always ready to be on the ground within 15 to 25 minutes if needed. Except on the Canary flights were at times 40 to 50 minutes is needed.
I suspect this flight was close to its destination when thing got critical.
A sad thing this is for all involved.
But like all the 1000s crash reports I have read, always something to learn.
Regards
Cpt B
BluSdUp is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 12:35
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: europe
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
Sorry to say , but a girl with known SEVERE allergy to banana, milk products, nutts and sesame seeds should under no circumstances trust any food purchased at an airport terminal before boarding a flight shorter then , say 25 minutes
Are trying to say that she somehow deserved it?

Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
Always ready to be on the ground within 15 to 25 minutes if needed. Except on the Canary flights were at times 40 to 50 minutes is needed.
I suspect this flight was close to its destination when thing got critical.
Not always possible
arketip is online now  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 13:14
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,889
Of course she didn’t ”deserve it,” but TBH as a parent I am really genuinely puzzled that anyone would go into an airport sandwich shop and buy an off the shelf product, regardless of labelling, when this applies to themselves or one of their family..(from the DM) :

“Her father detailed for the hearing how he and his wife had trained Natasha from a young age to study ingredients and allergens and how they had changed their lifestyle to protect her from allergic reactions.
Natasha was severely allergic to dairy, banana, sesame seeds and nuts, the court heard.”

I wonder if anyone here with family experience of this sort of level of allergy to food products is able to comment on how they manage dietary requirements when travelling by air?






wiggy is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 14:56
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 54
Posts: 2,370
Originally Posted by arketip View Post
Are trying to say that she somehow deserved it?
I think its rather unfair to deduct this from BSU's statement.

Q: why did the piriton and the 2 pens and adrenaline not work ? If an allergy is this strong and life threatening, then I think BSU has a point. What kind of info the commander did get at what time would probably have changed the landing site and thus time to hospital, but if the poor girl would have survived is another question.

What a nightmare for all involved...
His dudeness is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 15:58
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 60 north
Age: 56
Posts: 20
Arketip

So , were in Europe would You , as Commander need more then 50 minutes to reach an emergency airport.
I help you out a bit .
The flightdeck just filled up with electric smoke.
With the exception of Greenland , Iceland and Svalbard I can always reach an airport in 50 minutes in Europe!
49 min to go!!
BluSdUp is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 16:33
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 667
I have to agree. As soon as I know there's a severe medical condition that could result in permanent injury or death, subject to wx/airport suitability, I'm diverting. High speed, mayday, ambulance on arrival please.

The captain must have had some very strong reasoning not to divert into Chateauroux, Dijon, Lyon, St Etienne, Clermont Ferrand etc etc. Perhaps he wasn't told of the severity of her condition? Perhaps there were TS/CBs elsewhere?

I don't suspect we'll see all the details.
Kerosine is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 16:37
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: FL410
Posts: 856
Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
So , were in Europe would You , as Commander need more then 50 minutes to reach an emergency airport.
...
With the exception of Greenland , Iceland and Svalbard I can always reach an airport in 50 minutes in Europe!
London - Nice route: Paris, Lyon, Geneva, take your pick, all able to assist and with excellent facilities.
Skyjob is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 17:58
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,889
Originally Posted by Kerosine View Post
.....

The captain must have had some very strong reasoning not to divert into Chateauroux, Dijon, Lyon, St Etienne, Clermont Ferrand etc etc. Perhaps he wasn't told of the severity of her condition? Perhaps there were TS/CBs elsewhere?

I don't suspect we'll see all the details.
I suspect we’ll get enough eventually. With reference why he/she didn’t divert into XXX or YYY we as yet only have one account of timings and no evidence yet from the crew as to what they perceived and how communications were handled so maybe it would be wise to hang fire on questioning why the captain didn’t immediately divert into somewhere enroute. I guess one possibility is that by the time the captain was made fully aware of the gravity of the situation it is possible they were approaching TOD for NCE anyway, but that is just speculation on my part. I suspect all will become more clear when he/she gives evidence to the coroner...and as you say we haven’t even had the METARs or TAFs or NOTAMs yet...

(I’ll just add and state the blindingly obvious - having seen something serious and life threatening on a Longhaul Flight these situations aren’t always as straight forward as some Monday morning quarterbacks like to think..We were strongly advised by medics to overfly the nearest alternate to get to somewhere else with much better facilities that were much more likely to save life.....now that would have looked like an odd one in the press or to a coroner until explained).

edit to add update from The Evening Standard here:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/p...-a3945466.html







Last edited by wiggy; 25th Sep 2018 at 18:31.
wiggy is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 19:24
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,104
Not sure about you,

But in circumstances like these (medical, or other), I as a pilot would much prefer an open flight deck where I can go out and see for myself, talk to the people involved (cabin crew, doctor, passenger) and judge it from there. All too often I feel the communication through the intercom is slow and not always clear.
172_driver is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 21:19
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: east ESSEX
Posts: 3,735
Don`t the cabin crew have `walk-around` oxygen sets` for such emergencies...?
sycamore is online now  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 22:20
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA
Age: 55
Posts: 34
Not making excuses, but...

Not sure how one could miss sesame seeds on the crust....

Piriton, adrenaline, and 2 pens ?..you OD after 2 AND adrenaline (in reality, the 2 pens may have caused the heart attack)....it is unlikely that a diversion would have mattered.

Last edited by underfire; 25th Sep 2018 at 22:33.
underfire is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 23:18
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Block
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by Kerosine View Post
I have to agree. As soon as I know there's a severe medical condition that could result in permanent injury or death, subject to wx/airport suitability, I'm diverting. High speed, mayday, ambulance on arrival please.
Thatís an easy decision to make if your told right away thereís a severe medical condition onboard, so I donít see your point.

TolTol is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2018, 00:52
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 3,531
Not sure how one could miss sesame seeds on the crust
They were not on the crust, they were embedded within the bread.
megan is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.