Correct position of feet on rudder pedals at landing. (Airbus)
There is no official position on this by airbus. Both feet up or down is left to personal preference. However with heels on ground in case of engine failure at low speed on wet runway with unfavorable cross wind it takes some doing to apply full rudder and differential braking especially on aircraft like B747 classic where nose wheel was not connected to rudders. Feet up during takeoff roll requires a flat pressure on rudders more towards heels. It's not difficult. I have done it all my life.
Our 747 Classics definitely has nosewheel
steering through the rudder pedals
Our 747 Classics definitely has nosewheel
steering through the rudder pedals
Perhaps these were earlier models you
describe ?
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There is no official position on this by airbus. Both feet up or down is left to personal preference. However with heels on ground in case of engine failure at low speed on wet runway with unfavorable cross wind it takes some doing to apply full rudder and differential braking especially on aircraft like B747 classic where nose wheel was not connected to rudders. Feet up during takeoff roll requires a flat pressure on rudders more towards heels. It's not difficult. I have done it all my life.
"The flight crew must have their feet in a position so that full rudder deflection combined with full braking, even differential, can be applied instinctively and without delay."
My reading of this is feet on the pedal, not resting halfway up. WITHOUT delay.
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Retired for 17 years, I'll wade in late here. When I converted to the A-320 in the '80s I found the design of the rudder pedals rather odd, all previous types (see my profile) were configured to allow heels on the floor but one could easily press the upper portion to achieve braking without raising the heels. The A-320 forced you to place your feet at a shallower angle and to have them in position to apply brakes the heels had to be removed from the floor. To do this while still in the air seemed to be inviting a landing with brake(s) on, especially in a crosswind - it felt weird, I never adjusted to it and continued to keep heels on the floor until shifting position to apply brakes on the landing rollout. Auto brake use was SOP so this was never really an issue. I was aware that Airbus recommended otherwise but my employer did not require it.
What has not been mentioned above is that the A-340 and subsequently the A-330 had a much more conventional pedal design similar to that of Boeing, Douglas and others. A great improvement, one of several refinements to the Airbus product and I have always assumed it was in response to negative pilot input on the 320 design. I guess it was too late to retrofit the large A-320 fleet - or maybe intransigent pride played a part.
What has not been mentioned above is that the A-340 and subsequently the A-330 had a much more conventional pedal design similar to that of Boeing, Douglas and others. A great improvement, one of several refinements to the Airbus product and I have always assumed it was in response to negative pilot input on the 320 design. I guess it was too late to retrofit the large A-320 fleet - or maybe intransigent pride played a part.
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My FCTM does have a policy on this.....
"The flight crew must have their feet in a position so that full rudder deflection combined with full braking, even differential, can be applied instinctively and without delay."
My reading of this is feet on the pedal, not resting halfway up. WITHOUT delay.
"The flight crew must have their feet in a position so that full rudder deflection combined with full braking, even differential, can be applied instinctively and without delay."
My reading of this is feet on the pedal, not resting halfway up. WITHOUT delay.
I just spent two days in the sim. I had to abort a takeoff right after TOGA was set. I managed to keep it on the 30 m wide runway without too much trouble with differential braking. And I had a tyre burst on touchdown with an engine fire and runway excursion. (Programmed in the sim to have us make an emergency evacuation)
Those two examples are good reasons why it's not an option not to be ready with your feet on the pedals, ready to brake (differentially)!!
Last edited by sabenaboy; 4th Sep 2018 at 18:23. Reason: spelling
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Practice makes Permanent, not Perfect
Airplane design engineer and SLF here so I will not comment on the specific foot position question directly. This discussion does however remind me of lessons learned on the football pitch as a lad. Coach drilled into us that "Practice makes Permanent" contrary to the old and incorrect adage that "Practice makes Perfect." The lesson was that you must practice proper form so that you are instinctively ready to use that when needed. If you practice incorrect form, you will perform incorrectly in the heat of the moment. I want the pilot whose plane my family and I ride in to treat every landing as a dress rehearsal for the one that goes bad and needs every bit of skill, preparation, and quick responses they have built up over the years.
Off my soap box for now.
Off my soap box for now.
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I came across this today. From Airbus itself: https://www.airbus-win.com/ > procedures >standard operating procedures> Takeoff >takeoff procedures and recommendation: click on the camera symbol to watch the movie > as from 07:33
Do you see the picture showing the correct position?
Oh, but of course PGA already said it:
https://www.airbus-win.com/ >procedures >standard operating procedures> landing>preventing runway excursion. You will here the Airbus representative say: "The recommendation is OF COURSE the nr 1 position"
I guess we can really close the discussion now.
Do you see the picture showing the correct position?
Oh, but of course PGA already said it:
Originally Posted by PGA
Airbus does have an official position: Feet fully on the pedals.
Check the Airbus WIN application in the APP store and then specifically the video “preventing runway excursion”. There is a very clear depiction of what they recommend.
Edit: roughly 13m50 sec in the video, the recommendation is position 1.
Check the Airbus WIN application in the APP store and then specifically the video “preventing runway excursion”. There is a very clear depiction of what they recommend.
Edit: roughly 13m50 sec in the video, the recommendation is position 1.
I guess we can really close the discussion now.
Last edited by sabenaboy; 29th Mar 2019 at 11:32.
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You are totally right. The rudder pedals have been designed to have feet up and that’s what is recommended by Airbus test pilots.
This document proves feet up is definitely the way to go on Airbus.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Nzx...8F6DFKUKg/view
Document shared by Busav8r here —-> Inadvertent touching of brakes in 737 during takeoffroll
This document proves feet up is definitely the way to go on Airbus.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Nzx...8F6DFKUKg/view
Document shared by Busav8r here —-> Inadvertent touching of brakes in 737 during takeoffroll
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You are totally right. The rudder pedals have been designed to have feet up and that’s what is recommended by Airbus test pilots.
This document proves feet up is definitely the way to go on Airbus.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Nzx...8F6DFKUKg/view
Document shared by Busav8r here —-> Inadvertent touching of brakes in 737 during takeoffroll
This document proves feet up is definitely the way to go on Airbus.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Nzx...8F6DFKUKg/view
Document shared by Busav8r here —-> Inadvertent touching of brakes in 737 during takeoffroll
Great document!
In the PAST, the official Airbus position was feet completely on the pedals. This is the way I fly almost every aircraft of any make or size.
A few years ago Airbus surveyed their pilots on what technique they use and found a perfect 50/50 split between the 2 techniques. There was no correlation in experience or background to one of the two techniques. Civilian/military, test pilots/airline pilots, all groups had both techniques. So the official Airbus instructor position is now to do what works for you.
I will always advocate for entire feet on pedals, but anyone saying that one technique is incorrect is ... incorrect, and pedalling outdated information.
Reference is the Airbus Worldwide Instructor News app.
A few years ago Airbus surveyed their pilots on what technique they use and found a perfect 50/50 split between the 2 techniques. There was no correlation in experience or background to one of the two techniques. Civilian/military, test pilots/airline pilots, all groups had both techniques. So the official Airbus instructor position is now to do what works for you.
I will always advocate for entire feet on pedals, but anyone saying that one technique is incorrect is ... incorrect, and pedalling outdated information.
Reference is the Airbus Worldwide Instructor News app.
As has been just been posted, Airbus WIN has a video:
procedures>SOP>before pushback or start “What About Pilot Seating Position” stating that either technique is ok. Interestingly the other video link mentioned recommends feet up.
I don’t think I would necessarily consider the google drive document as gospel as it doesn’t appear to be an official Airbus document...
procedures>SOP>before pushback or start “What About Pilot Seating Position” stating that either technique is ok. Interestingly the other video link mentioned recommends feet up.
I don’t think I would necessarily consider the google drive document as gospel as it doesn’t appear to be an official Airbus document...
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ALL Airbus illustrations show feet up on the pedals. On Airbus WIN, the most recent video also recommends feet up. Only one not so recent video from one test pilot says they don’t have a clear answer but all the newest videos on the subject recommend feet up.
FCTM says your feet must be in a position to be be able to apply full rudder deflection combined with braking even differential without delay. It’s impossible to do that with heels on the floor. Period. There is no possible argument about it anymore. Feet up is the way that Airbus recommends. It’s written black and white and it’s recommended in the latest Airbus WIN Videos.
That google Drive document is trustworthy as most of its content come from Airbus official documents such as FCTM FCOM and Airbus Safety First Magazines.
FCTM says your feet must be in a position to be be able to apply full rudder deflection combined with braking even differential without delay. It’s impossible to do that with heels on the floor. Period. There is no possible argument about it anymore. Feet up is the way that Airbus recommends. It’s written black and white and it’s recommended in the latest Airbus WIN Videos.
That google Drive document is trustworthy as most of its content come from Airbus official documents such as FCTM FCOM and Airbus Safety First Magazines.
Last edited by pineteam; 19th Apr 2019 at 08:12.
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If you keep the toes slightly curled back and apply the pressure more from below the ball of the feet it helps avoid brake application.
I fully understand Check Airman's point here.
I recently transitioned to the A320, as a Capt. Six of us transitioned from Boeings in the last 3 months.
Whilst in training, we were advised in one of the last sims (new instructor) to adopt this 'feet up' technique.
The company is now getting quite a few FOQAs on dragging brakes, probably from us.
Apparently, the pressure needed to raise a Level 2 FOQA is unnoticeable to the pilot.
Coming from 38 years of 'heals on the floor', it's a big ask to amend previous habit, though I personally was trying very hard to transition, and was mindful of steering inputs with heals not toes.
Our company has issued an FSO to clear up the stance on this.
Cutting a long story short, "...without delay" does not require the pilots feet on the brake pedals.
Now, fair enough for Airbus to make these statements, but it's folly to read too much into it.
I personally think there is a quite few risks with 'feet-up', such as inadvertent brake dragging, inadvertent disarming of AutoBrake in both a rejected TO and on Landing. In an Autobrake assisted abort, the brake will be symmetrical anyway, and I am not going to risk an inadvertent application of brake on a V1 cut.
Old dog, new trick. I personally can't guarantee that I won't revert to my learned habit of pushing with my toes when a situation catches me by surprise.
I'm going back to toes. Too old to change, and apparently not necessary.
I recently transitioned to the A320, as a Capt. Six of us transitioned from Boeings in the last 3 months.
Whilst in training, we were advised in one of the last sims (new instructor) to adopt this 'feet up' technique.
The company is now getting quite a few FOQAs on dragging brakes, probably from us.
Apparently, the pressure needed to raise a Level 2 FOQA is unnoticeable to the pilot.
Coming from 38 years of 'heals on the floor', it's a big ask to amend previous habit, though I personally was trying very hard to transition, and was mindful of steering inputs with heals not toes.
Our company has issued an FSO to clear up the stance on this.
Cutting a long story short, "...without delay" does not require the pilots feet on the brake pedals.
Now, fair enough for Airbus to make these statements, but it's folly to read too much into it.
I personally think there is a quite few risks with 'feet-up', such as inadvertent brake dragging, inadvertent disarming of AutoBrake in both a rejected TO and on Landing. In an Autobrake assisted abort, the brake will be symmetrical anyway, and I am not going to risk an inadvertent application of brake on a V1 cut.
Old dog, new trick. I personally can't guarantee that I won't revert to my learned habit of pushing with my toes when a situation catches me by surprise.
I'm going back to toes. Too old to change, and apparently not necessary.
Only half a speed-brake
As much as I am a full feet up guy, having been trained for it from the first live flight, that is not what Airbus says.
If they had a justified reason why UP was the desirable choice they would had said so. Again, the way a great many comply with the instruction is feet up with no dragging issues at all. Yet there must be a reason behind the relatively complicated, result focused wording. (which frankly is lawyer's talk and them washing hands - so they had decided not to provide an opinion - take note here).
If they had a justified reason why UP was the desirable choice they would had said so. Again, the way a great many comply with the instruction is feet up with no dragging issues at all. Yet there must be a reason behind the relatively complicated, result focused wording. (which frankly is lawyer's talk and them washing hands - so they had decided not to provide an opinion - take note here).
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