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-   -   Correct position of feet on rudder pedals at landing. (Airbus) (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/612657-correct-position-feet-rudder-pedals-landing-airbus.html)

sabenaboy 27th Aug 2018 07:28

Correct position of feet on rudder pedals at landing. (Airbus)
 
I saw a Youtube video of an Airbus landing where you can clearly see that the captain moves his feet up on the pedals only a few seconds AFTER touchdown.
To me that means that he wasn't ready for instinctive (differential) braking at touchdown. He obviously only had his toes on the bottom part of the rudder at that time, far away from the brakes.
When somebody makes a remark about it in the comments, his reply is "There's autobrakes on this aircraft."
You can see it in the video below, where you can see his knees go up at 5:53 secs into the movie. ( he doesn't only do it in this movie. I obeserved in his other Youtube movies as well.)
I'm really amazed to see a captain land like this. Your thoughts?

goeasy 27th Aug 2018 09:03

All looks quite normal to me... You dont want feet near brakes before wheel spin up. Even with autobrake, you need to be ready for manual braking as well.

Hahn 27th Aug 2018 09:29

There is a growing armada of pilots lacking the fine motor skill of placing a foot on a pedal without pressing it. They happily ignore the fact that uncle Airbus is "selling" the rudder pedals with a toe stop so the pilot is ready to hit the brakes whenever needed and wait for their "oh sugar" moment when they have to land in a gusty crosswind. They'll never learn.
On amore serious note: landing "feet up" is impossible on a Boeing and nigh to impossible on a Cessna, many instructors project this knowledge to an Airbus without questioning the logic. The tendency to buy a typerating from a TRTO, not from the manufacturer, helps to spread fake news and wrong techniques.

sabenaboy 27th Aug 2018 10:24

'My' Airbus FCTM states: 'The flight crew must have their feet in a position so that full rudder deflection combined with full braking, even differential, can be applied instinctively and without delay'

Indeed, the airbus rudder pedals are designed to position your feet on the pedals, applying rudder with the heels and the toes ready to brake. That's what I've been taught as soon as I transitioned from the 737 to the 320.

One should indeed ask how else you can be ready to brake if something happens at or just after touchdown? Something like a burst tire, locked brake, nose wheel fault (off center). All unlikely events, but if it should happen, having your feet on the pedals, ready to brake (differentially) might be the difference between a non-event or making the world headlines.

Judd 27th Aug 2018 13:49


but if it should happen, having your feet on the pedals, ready to brake (differentially) might be the difference between a non-event or making the world headlines.
Ever tried walking just using your heels? Difficult and for some, quite painful.. In an emergency there may be a reason for deliberately landing with toes poised on top of brakes while trying to steer the rudder with using your heels. But totally unnecessary for normal day to day landings.

FlightDetent 27th Aug 2018 14:02

Judd: your objection is noted, but to double-check: Are you thinking A320-ish?

sabenaboy 27th Aug 2018 14:30


Originally Posted by Judd (Post 10234454)
Ever tried walking just using your heels? Difficult and for some, quite painful.. In an emergency there may be a reason for deliberately landing with toes poised on top of brakes while trying to steer the rudder with using your heels. But totally unnecessary for normal day to day landings.

Well, contrary to walking on your heels, having your feet on the pedals ready to brake is no problem whatsoever on the Airbus. It does not feel awkward at all. I suppose you're not on the Airbus?

Escape Path 27th Aug 2018 17:24

I don't understand how the whole "heels up/down" thing is still a question. Even my previous types (DHC-6 and -8) had pedals designed so you could actuate brakes or rudder independently. It's poor self awareness/lack of motor skills if you can't keep the toes off the brakes while using the rudder.

To me it all comes down to this: you want to have full control of the airplane in the least amount of time so you can apply corrections should it be needed. I've never experienced any problems on any type by placing my feet heels up on the pedals. And yes, current type is A320

stilton 29th Aug 2018 08:53

Can’t speak for Airbus


Boeing and Douglas it’s heels on the
floor unless braking

CaptainMongo 29th Aug 2018 22:46


Originally Posted by Judd (Post 10234454)
Ever tried walking just using your heels? Difficult and for some, quite painful.. In an emergency there may be a reason for deliberately landing with toes poised on top of brakes while trying to steer the rudder with using your heels. But totally unnecessary for normal day to day landings.

Normal day to day, a very nice world, if one could live in it....

Nice to plan when you have an emergency, but what about the one you didn’t plan for....

We aren’t paid for day to day operations, we are paid for when things go wrong, are you ready for when things go wrong?




misd-agin 30th Aug 2018 16:57


Originally Posted by goeasy (Post 10234210)
All looks quite normal to me... You dont want feet near brakes before wheel spin up. Even with autobrake, you need to be ready for manual braking as well.

I've landed with my feet 'up' on the pedals for 36 years. Shorts 3-30 will make you consider that technique. It's been no problem, heels for the rudders with foot flexed backwards. To transfer to braking is as easy as relaxing the front muscles at the front of your calves. It's much easier, and faster, than sliding your foot up the rudder pedals, especially in strong or gusty crosswinds.

misd-agin 30th Aug 2018 16:58


Originally Posted by Hahn (Post 10234226)
There is a growing armada of pilots lacking the fine motor skill of placing a foot on a pedal without pressing it. They happily ignore the fact that uncle Airbus is "selling" the rudder pedals with a toe stop so the pilot is ready to hit the brakes whenever needed and wait for their "oh sugar" moment when they have to land in a gusty crosswind. They'll never learn.
On amore serious note: landing "feet up" is impossible on a Boeing and nigh to impossible on a Cessna, many instructors project this knowledge to an Airbus without questioning the logic. The tendency to buy a typerating from a TRTO, not from the manufacturer, helps to spread fake news and wrong techniques.

18,000+ hrs in Boeing's with my feet 'up'. Didn't know I was doing the impossible. Your post is contributing to "fake news and wrong techniques." You can land feet 'up' in all the aircraft I've flown, including Boeing's and Cessna's, By using the required techniques many things in flying, or life, can suddenly go from impossible to easy.

misd-agin 30th Aug 2018 17:06


Originally Posted by Judd (Post 10234454)
Ever tried walking just using your heels? Difficult and for some, quite painful.. In an emergency there may be a reason for deliberately landing with toes poised on top of brakes while trying to steer the rudder with using your heels. But totally unnecessary for normal day to day landings.

Most people walk with their heels touching first and then transition to the ball and then toes of their foot. Just like landing with your feet in the 'up' position. It's not that tough.

Uplinker 1st Sep 2018 08:35

We were instructed to keep heels on the floor during take-off, (Airbus FBW), i.e. steer with our toes on the bottom of the pedals. This was I believe to avoid accidentally disconnecting the autobrake during an RTO.

On approach to land, the Airbus conducts a brake test, so it checks there are no locked brakes before landing.

What circumstances would require one to apply differential braking on the point of touchdown? (given that you will be well above Vmcg at this point).

RVF750 1st Sep 2018 10:52

I'm feet up as well. Relatively new to the Boeing, so I do brief that I might disconnect RTO and manually brake in an emergency, but flame me if you want- I don't see any problem with that. I can modulate as required depending on what the problems was. Then again, I've flown tail draggers and turboprops so my fine motor skills are not a problem....

vilas 1st Sep 2018 12:42


We were instructed to keep heels on the floor during take-off, (Airbus FBW
There is no official position on this by airbus. Both feet up or down is left to personal preference. However with heels on ground in case of engine failure at low speed on wet runway with unfavorable cross wind it takes some doing to apply full rudder and differential braking especially on aircraft like B747 classic where nose wheel was not connected to rudders. Feet up during takeoff roll requires a flat pressure on rudders more towards heels. It's not difficult. I have done it all my life.


​​

PGA 1st Sep 2018 15:07

Airbus does have an official position: Feet fully on the pedals.

Check the Airbus WIN application in the APP store and then specifically the video “preventing runway excursion”. There is a very clear depiction of what they recommend.

Edit: roughly 13m50 sec in the video, the recommendation is position 1.


PGA 1st Sep 2018 15:14


TolTol 1st Sep 2018 15:26

Had a very experienced TRE (“over 10,000 hours in sim”) for my last check and he taught us to keep heals on the floor - “that’s why Airbus put that shinny metal floor there”. I guess everyone has a different opinion.

vilas 2nd Sep 2018 13:43


Airbus does have an official position: Feet fully on the pedals.
PGA in the same airbus win app see the video "What About Seating Position" between 2:45 to 2:50 you will hear Yann Lardet Director training standards telling you that they don't have a definite position on this. Although as I said before I have always kept feet up even on takeoff.


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