Non Standard communication
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Funny enough, I later had a sim session with this same pilot and we had a manual flight session in which we had to do circuits with autopilot and autothrust off (everything else being normal) and he didn't even know how much thrust to set on finals... He lost any moral authority he had on me to correct me on those kind of nitpicks after that
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I think the / my point may have been lost. “Airmanship” I’d like to think encompasses knowing what to prioritise & how to get the job done safely & efficiently. Picking a fight with a colleague over a call that has no relevance to getting on with the job is in itself pathetic.
As mentioned, from my experience from an academic, FO, Capt & instructor point of view has caused me to try to look at the “WHY”. If a pilot can’t or doesn’t get the basic SOPs right I ask why. Is he/she lazy & just not read them? Unprofessional & not care? Poorly trained (mostly in my experience!)? Or an arrogant pain in the ar$e who always knows better...? If a pilot can’t or refuses to get the minimums right then what else is lacking?
I’ve flown with a pilot who called a checklist completed when it hadn’t even be read through in a challenge - response manner because in his mind it was done anyway. A waste of his valuable time of course.... The same guy then later tried to insist on some absolutely mind boggling theory as to when & why to perform an RTO. Here’s an example of pure arrogance, ignorance & woeful recruitment as well as very bad training.
I’ve also seen a report on an instructor who gave a crew a conditional pass for failing to conduct a go-around due an automatic “GLIDEDLOPE - GLIDSLOPE” EGPWS callout below 1000 ft AGL. The crew were dealing with a OEI & other engine with moderate to severe vibration/stall/surge with N1 > 50%. The instructor argued the SOP is clear if the approach is unstable...! The crew of course argued common sense. In order to maintain authority the training dept maintained the grade. (To me it only highlights an extremely weak check & training culture at this airline).
I still believe that we must know what black & white is until we can decide or agree what the grey is. And when it isn’t ask why.
As mentioned, from my experience from an academic, FO, Capt & instructor point of view has caused me to try to look at the “WHY”. If a pilot can’t or doesn’t get the basic SOPs right I ask why. Is he/she lazy & just not read them? Unprofessional & not care? Poorly trained (mostly in my experience!)? Or an arrogant pain in the ar$e who always knows better...? If a pilot can’t or refuses to get the minimums right then what else is lacking?
I’ve flown with a pilot who called a checklist completed when it hadn’t even be read through in a challenge - response manner because in his mind it was done anyway. A waste of his valuable time of course.... The same guy then later tried to insist on some absolutely mind boggling theory as to when & why to perform an RTO. Here’s an example of pure arrogance, ignorance & woeful recruitment as well as very bad training.
I’ve also seen a report on an instructor who gave a crew a conditional pass for failing to conduct a go-around due an automatic “GLIDEDLOPE - GLIDSLOPE” EGPWS callout below 1000 ft AGL. The crew were dealing with a OEI & other engine with moderate to severe vibration/stall/surge with N1 > 50%. The instructor argued the SOP is clear if the approach is unstable...! The crew of course argued common sense. In order to maintain authority the training dept maintained the grade. (To me it only highlights an extremely weak check & training culture at this airline).
I still believe that we must know what black & white is until we can decide or agree what the grey is. And when it isn’t ask why.
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Any non standard communication/callout/procedure, if not motivated by a safety condition, can and will be used against You in case of any event investigation, even minors ones, where CVR data analysis is required. Why risking ? Nowadays I believe we are dealing with sufficient amount of external potential headaches to add more on our own.
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The topic of 'non-standard communication' was opened with examples of intra crew chat. The concept of its effect on safety has been mentioned. The discussion could be widened to pilots-ATC. I wonder if the situation at JFK has changed in the past 20 years. It was amusing to hear, on my first visit, the vaudeville performances of some.
ATC, "XYZ establish localiser 4L and call the glide." XYZ, "OK were on the glide & starting to slide."
ATC, "Commuter ABC, cleared for takeoff; immediate left turn en-route. " ABC,"OK, here we go, see ya."
What's it like these days? What was the case is the clearance ATC controllers mouths worked faster than many of the foreign crews ears.
ATC, "XYZ establish localiser 4L and call the glide." XYZ, "OK were on the glide & starting to slide."
ATC, "Commuter ABC, cleared for takeoff; immediate left turn en-route. " ABC,"OK, here we go, see ya."
What's it like these days? What was the case is the clearance ATC controllers mouths worked faster than many of the foreign crews ears.
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To be honest, the worst phraseology I've heard it's from US pilots. This includes gems like "we are low on gas" from an AA crew hitting diversion fuel on a Latin American mountainous airfield, and my all time favorite: "all balls on the altimeter" for a setting of 30.00"
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« Climbing to ten thousand » instead of « one zero thousand. »
« Eighteen One » instead of « one one Eight decimal one » are some common ones I heard from US carriers. That does not bother me tho.
« Eighteen One » instead of « one one Eight decimal one » are some common ones I heard from US carriers. That does not bother me tho.
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I'm calling myself out guilty of this one, and will unashamedly continue to do it so long as I fly domestic. As I repeat the frequency back this way, it's way easier to lodge it into my brain until I dial it in if the same call/readback includes other numbers.
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British Charter Airline. SOP was for PM to announce "1green", or "5green" when the commanded and selected flap indication was achieved. Some prat in the training dept decided there was too much "chatter", therefore the call was written out of the script of our play. Guess what, after 2 separate potentially nasty incidents soon after, the call was reinstated.
EU major charter airline. We use to say "1 to go" at the appropriate stage in climb & descent. Simple, 3 syllables in a busy verbal environment did the trick. Then some wally with more authority than experience decided this season's call had to be "One thousand feet to level-off". 8 syllables where 3 formerly sufficed. WHY??!!
Training captains please note, you are NOT a new senior officer in the military, "marking your territory" by changing the way things are done just to impose your (unearned) authority! You are there to change things only where needed as proved by an incident meriting such change or when directed by the xAA who is supervising your operation. The stories of pedantic trainers annoying just about everyone with whom they have operated a 'frame with nitpicking stupidity, then failing to cope with the most mundane events is indicative of a species which should be eliminated by assertive culling by switched-on and alert informed flight management.
But then this latter breed seems to have been supplanted by the army of bean-counters and greasy-pole climbers who now inhabit the office.
EU major charter airline. We use to say "1 to go" at the appropriate stage in climb & descent. Simple, 3 syllables in a busy verbal environment did the trick. Then some wally with more authority than experience decided this season's call had to be "One thousand feet to level-off". 8 syllables where 3 formerly sufficed. WHY??!!
Training captains please note, you are NOT a new senior officer in the military, "marking your territory" by changing the way things are done just to impose your (unearned) authority! You are there to change things only where needed as proved by an incident meriting such change or when directed by the xAA who is supervising your operation. The stories of pedantic trainers annoying just about everyone with whom they have operated a 'frame with nitpicking stupidity, then failing to cope with the most mundane events is indicative of a species which should be eliminated by assertive culling by switched-on and alert informed flight management.
But then this latter breed seems to have been supplanted by the army of bean-counters and greasy-pole climbers who now inhabit the office.
I think every US pilot is guilty of that for the reasons that you state
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British Charter Airline. SOP was for PM to announce "1green", or "5green" when the commanded and selected flap indication was achieved. Some prat in the training dept decided there was too much "chatter", therefore the call was written out of the script of our play. Guess what, after 2 separate potentially nasty incidents soon after, the call was reinstated.
EU major charter airline. We use to say "1 to go" at the appropriate stage in climb & descent. Simple, 3 syllables in a busy verbal environment did the trick. Then some wally with more authority than experience decided this season's call had to be "One thousand feet to level-off". 8 syllables where 3 formerly sufficed. WHY??!!
Training captains please note, you are NOT a new senior officer in the military, "marking your territory" by changing the way things are done just to impose your (unearned) authority! You are there to change things only where needed as proved by an incident meriting such change or when directed by the xAA who is supervising your operation. The stories of pedantic trainers annoying just about everyone with whom they have operated a 'frame with nitpicking stupidity, then failing to cope with the most mundane events is indicative of a species which should be eliminated by assertive culling by switched-on and alert informed flight management.
But then this latter breed seems to have been supplanted by the army of bean-counters and greasy-pole climbers who now inhabit the office.
EU major charter airline. We use to say "1 to go" at the appropriate stage in climb & descent. Simple, 3 syllables in a busy verbal environment did the trick. Then some wally with more authority than experience decided this season's call had to be "One thousand feet to level-off". 8 syllables where 3 formerly sufficed. WHY??!!
Training captains please note, you are NOT a new senior officer in the military, "marking your territory" by changing the way things are done just to impose your (unearned) authority! You are there to change things only where needed as proved by an incident meriting such change or when directed by the xAA who is supervising your operation. The stories of pedantic trainers annoying just about everyone with whom they have operated a 'frame with nitpicking stupidity, then failing to cope with the most mundane events is indicative of a species which should be eliminated by assertive culling by switched-on and alert informed flight management.
But then this latter breed seems to have been supplanted by the army of bean-counters and greasy-pole climbers who now inhabit the office.
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I think we all agree that nitpicking the petty is more detrimental than good. It can become a pecker measuring contest as to who can regurgitate the most.
However, I still go back to the WHY. Back in the late 80’s & early 90’s the NYC subway crime rate was reduced dramatically by looking at the bigger picture. They re-assessed going after the muggers, vandals & assault assailants & focused on the fare dodgers. The ones jumping the turnstiles, etc. The psychology behind it was that the TYPE of person who’d commit petty crime was also the TYPE who’d potentially be guilty of other crimes. It worked. They also removed all evidence of graffiti nightly so the crime wasn’t visiable & thus setting a culture of it being stopped before it spread. After all, the graffiti vandals want notoriety for their actions so they stopped it.
So a pilot who can’t / won’t / unable to follow SOPs may also have the traits contributing to potential worse lapses of procedure. My experience of a guy refusing to follow basic checklist protocols and then having some hairbrained completely off the chart RTO philosophy proves a point.
The same type of intstructor who obsesses over getting the lights & seat belt signs on before performing an emergency descent would also force questions to be asked about his traits as an instructor.
Lastly, and well pointed out above, for the life of me I cannot fathom why crews often deliberately breach SOPs & therefore leave themselves open to liability in the event of an incident or accident. The insurance companies, lawyers & bean counters will persistantly & aggressively hunt for ANY way to attribute blame elsewhere & avoid financial penalty. SOP non compliance an easy target if related. Why do it to yourself?
Common sense & airmanship. Two traits fast becoming a rarity.
However, I still go back to the WHY. Back in the late 80’s & early 90’s the NYC subway crime rate was reduced dramatically by looking at the bigger picture. They re-assessed going after the muggers, vandals & assault assailants & focused on the fare dodgers. The ones jumping the turnstiles, etc. The psychology behind it was that the TYPE of person who’d commit petty crime was also the TYPE who’d potentially be guilty of other crimes. It worked. They also removed all evidence of graffiti nightly so the crime wasn’t visiable & thus setting a culture of it being stopped before it spread. After all, the graffiti vandals want notoriety for their actions so they stopped it.
So a pilot who can’t / won’t / unable to follow SOPs may also have the traits contributing to potential worse lapses of procedure. My experience of a guy refusing to follow basic checklist protocols and then having some hairbrained completely off the chart RTO philosophy proves a point.
The same type of intstructor who obsesses over getting the lights & seat belt signs on before performing an emergency descent would also force questions to be asked about his traits as an instructor.
Lastly, and well pointed out above, for the life of me I cannot fathom why crews often deliberately breach SOPs & therefore leave themselves open to liability in the event of an incident or accident. The insurance companies, lawyers & bean counters will persistantly & aggressively hunt for ANY way to attribute blame elsewhere & avoid financial penalty. SOP non compliance an easy target if related. Why do it to yourself?
Common sense & airmanship. Two traits fast becoming a rarity.
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Back in the late 80’s & early 90’s the NYC subway crime rate was reduced dramatically by looking at the bigger picture. They re-assessed going after the muggers, vandals & assault assailants & focused on the fare dodgers. The ones jumping the turnstiles, etc. The psychology behind it was that the TYPE of person who’d commit petty crime was also the TYPE who’d potentially be guilty of other crimes. It worked. They also removed all evidence of graffiti nightly so the crime wasn’t visiable & thus setting a culture of it being stopped before it spread. After all, the graffiti vandals want notoriety for their actions so they stopped it.
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Great thread by the way...
This is one of my annoyances, I couldn’t agree more that the big picture can get lost by some trainers however in my airline, that thankfully seems to be in the minority now.
Regarding SOP’s and non standard RT, I reckon I was in that band of ‘I’m too cool to need perfect calls’ 6 or 7 years ago and got pulled up by a good friend who also happened to be a trainer.
His argument was our standard calls are one page long, It’s not difficult to just use them every time, not using them religiously made me look lazy and gash rather than ‘cool.
I was looking at a command and thankfully I got the message and started being completely standard and guess what... within a week, it was easy!!
Now I am i the left seat, I totally get it... last week I flew with an FO who recently joined from another airline, where it seems that every time something is asked for, it is repeated from the other seat. Nothing particularly wrong with that I suppose.... unless it’s not something that is standard now at our airline.
On departure, I asked for gear up... when FO replies gear up... something I have never heard repeated, it confused me... then when I asked for flaps 1... you guessed it, i heard flaps1. I immediately thought something was wrong and a short conversation was had at 1000’. not the ideal time.
I questioned why this was happeneing a little later, and the reason was that he used to do it in the last airline... and no one had ever mentioned it. He left 18
months ago!!!
To me me that is not good, not only has the person not been bothered to get the calls correctly but no one has questioned it in the last 18 months.
Both parties are at fault for this, and now as a Captain, I feel obliged to correct (at the right time and in a polite suggestive manor) SOP deficiencies. If nothing else, when that person comes up for a command, it will be picked up.
Just my thoughts......
This is one of my annoyances, I couldn’t agree more that the big picture can get lost by some trainers however in my airline, that thankfully seems to be in the minority now.
Regarding SOP’s and non standard RT, I reckon I was in that band of ‘I’m too cool to need perfect calls’ 6 or 7 years ago and got pulled up by a good friend who also happened to be a trainer.
His argument was our standard calls are one page long, It’s not difficult to just use them every time, not using them religiously made me look lazy and gash rather than ‘cool.
I was looking at a command and thankfully I got the message and started being completely standard and guess what... within a week, it was easy!!
Now I am i the left seat, I totally get it... last week I flew with an FO who recently joined from another airline, where it seems that every time something is asked for, it is repeated from the other seat. Nothing particularly wrong with that I suppose.... unless it’s not something that is standard now at our airline.
On departure, I asked for gear up... when FO replies gear up... something I have never heard repeated, it confused me... then when I asked for flaps 1... you guessed it, i heard flaps1. I immediately thought something was wrong and a short conversation was had at 1000’. not the ideal time.
I questioned why this was happeneing a little later, and the reason was that he used to do it in the last airline... and no one had ever mentioned it. He left 18
months ago!!!
To me me that is not good, not only has the person not been bothered to get the calls correctly but no one has questioned it in the last 18 months.
Both parties are at fault for this, and now as a Captain, I feel obliged to correct (at the right time and in a polite suggestive manor) SOP deficiencies. If nothing else, when that person comes up for a command, it will be picked up.
Just my thoughts......
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For me, good standard communication is like good spelling when writing . Surely 99% of the time we can understand each other when we make mistakes but isn't it more pleasant when it's perfectly well written?
Btw, I know my english is not always spot on but it's not intentional.
Btw, I know my english is not always spot on but it's not intentional.
