Weather Radar in Cavok Condition?
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Originally Posted by CaptainMongo
The NAV lights on our fleet stay on all the time for safety. It is a company policy, one of many we exercise not required by FAR.
The NAV lights on our fleet stay on all the time for safety. It is a company policy, one of many we exercise not required by FAR.
If you really believe you leave your NAV lights on for safety during daylight, then please point me towards an accident / incident report which was caused by the crew not displaying NAV lights between sunrise and sunset.
Here are a couple of incidents caused by "inappropriate use of weather radar".
https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/...nt_Reports:_WX
"A343, en-route, mid North Atlantic Ocean, 2011 (On 22 July 2011 an Air France A340-300 en route over the North Atlantic at FL350 in night IMC encountered moderate turbulence following "inappropriate use of the weather radar" which led to an overspeed annunciation followed by the aircraft abruptly pitching up and gaining over 3000 feet in less than a minute before control was regained and it was returned to the cleared level. There Investigation concluded that "the incident was due to inadequate monitoring of the flight parameters, which led to the failure to notice AP disengagement and the level bust, following a reflex action on the controls.”)
A346, en route, eastern Indian Ocean, 2013 (On 3 February 2013, an Airbus A340 crew in the cruise in equatorial latitudes at FL350 in IMC failed to use their weather radar properly and entered an area of ice crystal icing outside the prevailing icing envelope. A short period of unreliable airspeed indications on displays dependent on the left side pitot probes followed with a brief excursion above FL350 and reversion to Alternate Law. Excessive vibration on the left engine then began and a diversion was made. The engine remained in use and was subsequently found undamaged with the fault attributed to ice/water ingress due to seal failure.)"
galaxy flyer,
I remember that NOTAM well. And despite keeping the radar and transponder on, the USS Vincennes nearly shot down a BA 747 aircraft shortly before it shot down the Iran Air Airbus. Unfortunately, mistakes do happen.
I remember that NOTAM well. And despite keeping the radar and transponder on, the USS Vincennes nearly shot down a BA 747 aircraft shortly before it shot down the Iran Air Airbus. Unfortunately, mistakes do happen.
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I have flown for an airline with WX RDR ON policy and now for an airline with AS REQUIRED policy.
We had far fewer RDR problems in the ON airline. Just my experience.
I don't know how many times I have flown around WX my Effoh was blissfully unaware of. Embedded CB's hiding in a high level cloud cover. Or at night.
While some military systems can't see my radar, others can. Not just in conflict areas, but military air exercises are frequent in Europe. More so recently. It adds another layer of safety as I see it.
Radiation? The modern systems are low power systems, not like the Flash Gordon style RDR antennas of some 30+ years ago which had side lobes that would give radiation in a much wider pattern. So unless you are flying a classic DC 9 or a similar old aircraft, radiation is not an issue.
For me the benefits outweigh the disadvantages which seems to be limited to forgetting to switch it off. Or annoying the other guy.
I can live with that.
We had far fewer RDR problems in the ON airline. Just my experience.
I don't know how many times I have flown around WX my Effoh was blissfully unaware of. Embedded CB's hiding in a high level cloud cover. Or at night.
While some military systems can't see my radar, others can. Not just in conflict areas, but military air exercises are frequent in Europe. More so recently. It adds another layer of safety as I see it.
Radiation? The modern systems are low power systems, not like the Flash Gordon style RDR antennas of some 30+ years ago which had side lobes that would give radiation in a much wider pattern. So unless you are flying a classic DC 9 or a similar old aircraft, radiation is not an issue.
For me the benefits outweigh the disadvantages which seems to be limited to forgetting to switch it off. Or annoying the other guy.
I can live with that.
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Goldenrivett,
You cite two occurrences where the crew had the weather radar on but used it either "inappropriately or "failed to use the weather radar properly." How would have an "always on" SOP prevented those two occurrences? Those instances sound to me like two crews who didn't know how to operate their weather radar or didn't know their jobs well enough or didn't do good enough preflight preparation or were to busy finishing a crossword puzzle or maybe they needed a trip back to their training center.
Is that cold? Yeah. It has come to the point in commercial aviation where the pilots are either the ones who will save the passengers, crew and aircraft or the ones who will kill the passengers, crew and wreck the aircraft. The earth is littered with dead people and wrecked aircraft because pilots failed their passengers and crew. It is an ugly but inescapable truth.
Look at the past 10 years of accidents - far to many of them point that ugly finger at us as the cause. Pilots who don't know their aircraft, pilots who don't know their SOP, pilots who think they are so damn smart and experienced that SOP doesn't apply to them - pilots who made smoking holes with perfectly fine aircraft and bring along a bunch of guests who preferred not to be invited.
Which brings me back to my original point. If pilots can't be depended upon to turn on and use their WX radar effectively when operating in the vicinity of convective activity, what is their purpose in the cockpit?
You cite two occurrences where the crew had the weather radar on but used it either "inappropriately or "failed to use the weather radar properly." How would have an "always on" SOP prevented those two occurrences? Those instances sound to me like two crews who didn't know how to operate their weather radar or didn't know their jobs well enough or didn't do good enough preflight preparation or were to busy finishing a crossword puzzle or maybe they needed a trip back to their training center.
Is that cold? Yeah. It has come to the point in commercial aviation where the pilots are either the ones who will save the passengers, crew and aircraft or the ones who will kill the passengers, crew and wreck the aircraft. The earth is littered with dead people and wrecked aircraft because pilots failed their passengers and crew. It is an ugly but inescapable truth.
Look at the past 10 years of accidents - far to many of them point that ugly finger at us as the cause. Pilots who don't know their aircraft, pilots who don't know their SOP, pilots who think they are so damn smart and experienced that SOP doesn't apply to them - pilots who made smoking holes with perfectly fine aircraft and bring along a bunch of guests who preferred not to be invited.
Which brings me back to my original point. If pilots can't be depended upon to turn on and use their WX radar effectively when operating in the vicinity of convective activity, what is their purpose in the cockpit?
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Just do what you're paid to do.
I'm paid to leave the radar on, my colleague expects the radar to be on, so it stays on.
Worst thing that can happen now is an FO reading this thread and switching the radar off whilst I still expect it to be on.
I'm paid to leave the radar on, my colleague expects the radar to be on, so it stays on.
Worst thing that can happen now is an FO reading this thread and switching the radar off whilst I still expect it to be on.
"It does worry me that basic airmanship needs to be written in an SOP."
We work in an industry where a two pilot crew recently flew an entire sector with the wheels down and did not notice. They couldnt figure out why it would not climb, why it would not accelerate, why it was so noisy and yet pressed on regardless. And then almost ran out of fuel.
There is almost ZERO basic airmanship in many parts of the world and these SOP's pander to the lowest common denominator.
We work in an industry where a two pilot crew recently flew an entire sector with the wheels down and did not notice. They couldnt figure out why it would not climb, why it would not accelerate, why it was so noisy and yet pressed on regardless. And then almost ran out of fuel.
There is almost ZERO basic airmanship in many parts of the world and these SOP's pander to the lowest common denominator.
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Working for a WX radar on company, the largest A320 operator in the world I'm led to believe, I have NEVER encountered or heard of a WX-radar being unserviceable.
Sometimes these topics seem more of a showcase for ones superior airmanship than anything else. In the Air India thread quite a few people could not believe that some companies do not have an After Takeoff Checklist. And yet here these same people can't believe that our SOP demands the radar on all the time. Guys....take a break.
Sometimes these topics seem more of a showcase for ones superior airmanship than anything else. In the Air India thread quite a few people could not believe that some companies do not have an After Takeoff Checklist. And yet here these same people can't believe that our SOP demands the radar on all the time. Guys....take a break.
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It does worry me that basic airmanship needs to be written in an SOP. Clue? Look out the window. Can you see where you are going? No. Check TAT ref: EAI, 2nd turn on Wx Radar. The problem with too many SOP's is it dilutes airmanship because guys stop thinking. There is no SOP to increase thrust if you need to climb. It is just what you need to do. Let's get back to airman and not trained monkeys.
This was one the dumbest aviation rule of 2016, hands down. low level windshear can occur in clear skies depending on the topography. As commented, some "States" require weather radar to be on when transiting their airspace. There is no evidence that the WX Radar is harmful to crew as it points forward, although the constant grind of the gimble can be annoying. Guess we just stick to SOPs and let other higher powers decide!
when flying below 2300 feet AGL. And the reactive windshear is independent of the radar system so flying with radar off or on will make no difference. I guess Airbus thought about everything.
Funny you mentioned that cause actually it happened on a flight where I was passenger. it was an A330 and after 1H10 of flight time, the captain made an announcement due to technical problem, we had to turn back. I managed to talk to the captain on the ground and he told me it was due to radar mechanism failure. And yes, this airline required the crew to operate the radar all the time... So I was wondering maybe if they were not abusing of it, these kind of problem might happen less often?
What about a proper ground training to the crew on how to use the weather radar? Instead of having useless class like Dangerous Goods every 2 years no pilots care about. So many folks just blindly turn the Radar on and leave it on auto mode the entire flight and I'm pretty sure they don't really know how to use on manual mode when required.
Last edited by pineteam; 7th Aug 2017 at 08:22.
I've worked for 3 airlines. 2 (both longhaul) had SOP that it was always on. 1 (shorthaul) had no requirement. Working longhaul I want the weather radar on all the time on at least one screen. Pure and simply because when you're regularly flying through the night either over Africa or over the Atlantic you're dog dead tired and no matter how good you think you are you will make mistakes through fatigue.
Trap the error before it becomes one. It doesn't cost you anything it has no ill effects on you and I've found having it on all the time has forced me to learn how to use it properly. It's incredible the number of times I have found embedded CB's where absolutely nothing was forecast.
Trap the error before it becomes one. It doesn't cost you anything it has no ill effects on you and I've found having it on all the time has forced me to learn how to use it properly. It's incredible the number of times I have found embedded CB's where absolutely nothing was forecast.
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I imagine you may survive an unexpected weather encounter, but you won't survive an unexpected terrain encounter 
In the planes I've flown with LCDs, I've never had a problem with dimming the terrain as much as I please. Do you use CRTs?
I've often wondered about why the weather display can be turned so low myself. Doesn't seem to make sense. On airplanes with the new radar, you actually get a message on the ND when weather is detected, prompting you to increase the brightness if required.
In the planes I've flown with LCDs, I've never had a problem with dimming the terrain as much as I please. Do you use CRTs?
I've often wondered about why the weather display can be turned so low myself. Doesn't seem to make sense. On airplanes with the new radar, you actually get a message on the ND when weather is detected, prompting you to increase the brightness if required.
What aircraft are you flying? Cause after reading your post I tried like 4/5 times on max dim with weather ahead ( the Fo has it on max bright) and it never told me to increase the brightness.
It was on a less than 2 years old A321 ( MSN 6300+).
Trap the error before it becomes one. It doesn't cost you anything it has no ill effects on you and I've found having it on all the time has forced me to learn how to use it properly. It's incredible the number of times I have found embedded CB's where absolutely nothing was forecast.
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Of course you would trust your eyes. Until you fly into overcast skies and forget to switch the radar on. Your eyes won't help you then. Leaving the radar on the whole flight is just a precaution that some operators employ. What's the fuss?
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Hi. At night I can undestand for long haul flights. But during day time with no embedded CBs, unless you are using charts to cover the windscreen, I would trust more my eyes for weather deviation than the radar system.
There are surely all manner of operators of aircraft that peruse this forum, some ideas I might endorse and those I might strongly object to. It wouldn't be nearly as interesting if we were all the same.
I think what's important with radar, is situational awareness, after all, stumbling into a CB by accident is something hopefully ever done only once. If it could possibly happen, it will happen. Are we all fallible? Yes. Despite what the aces here might think. So for me, leaving the radar on, but paying attention to how it's set up, is the way to go.
Covering your windscreen with charts? That was a no no, in my cockpit.
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I was talking about good weather conditions in day time. Unless both of us are sleeping, I don't see how it's possible to fly into a CB. obviously if it looks doggy, I won't take a chance and put the radar ON. Maybe it depends where you fly, I operate now in Asia, and 90% of the time the Cbs are well isolated and you must be drunk or sleeping to miss it.. When I was flying in Africa, no aircraft were equipped with radar; Never remembered being a serious problem during day time. Let's be honest, most of the time it's just water and worst case you are going to shake a bit: Just open your eyes and doge around the cells. Simple as it sounds. Weather radar is a bonus, it's not even required by Mel if no thundestorm activity en route even at night! Make me wounder if some airlines will cancel a day time flight in perfect condition just because the radar is inop? LOL
My fuss is the people lack of common sense and that "oversafe attitude" Maybe I'm too much company orientated but just because it's there does not mean you have to use it. Someone is paying for that, your employer. If the maintenance cost was negligible; Then all operators and Airbus will recommend to keep the radar ON all the time. But I guess they assume there is still some room for pilot to think before acting blindly.
By that logic, like I mention before, we should fly with anti ice all the time, all lights on, land with autobrake medium, maximum fuel: That's also safer.
Last edited by pineteam; 7th Aug 2017 at 11:51. Reason: added one sentence
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Your cockpit is quiet enough for you go hear your wxr scanning?! Which plane do you fly?
There was a time when it was said that the noisiest thing in a Rolls Royce was the clock. RR engines not fitted to A320 so it must be the Wx radar.
In a simulator session, the PM was told over the private intercom system not to call "Stable."
The PF release the brakes and started to trundle down the runway at 40% N1. The airspeed had reached about 45 knots and we had used up 1500 feet of runway when the PF looked across the cockpit to the PM and said accusingly "You forgot to call Stable."
Cue to freeze the simulator and say WTF
Out of curiosity, was PF expected to glance across, see that PM was awake, say WTF wake up, and advance to TOGA; or assume incapacitation and RTO?
There was a time when it was said that the noisiest thing in a Rolls Royce was the clock. RR engines not fitted to A320 so it must be the Wx radar.
In a simulator session, the PM was told over the private intercom system not to call "Stable."
The PF release the brakes and started to trundle down the runway at 40% N1. The airspeed had reached about 45 knots and we had used up 1500 feet of runway when the PF looked across the cockpit to the PM and said accusingly "You forgot to call Stable."
Cue to freeze the simulator and say WTF
Out of curiosity, was PF expected to glance across, see that PM was awake, say WTF wake up, and advance to TOGA; or assume incapacitation and RTO?
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On the other side of the equation, two items that take a heavy toll on modern electronics are moisture and thermal cycling. Keeping the WXR on keeps it dry, and turning it on when cold soaked at altitude will cause the solder joints to crack much more so than when turned on leaving the gate. Remember the old tube TV's and even the news ones. Who's TV never dies? ans. the guy that leaves it on 24x7. When does it die, not when it's on, but when it is turned. How many times does an aircraft taxi to the gate OK, and break when fired up from cold for another flight.
That philosophy was told to me after the introduction of B757/767 to our fleet; especially in winter. It cost a bit in GPU time though. I guess the tree huggers would frown upon a GPU being on for 6 hours every evening; so why not an electronics battery cart? Why have a diesel noisy GPU chugging away. Where's TESLA when you need them? That's an idea. Think of the worldwide need for battery carts instead of GPU's. All this guff about shutting down APU's and plugging in GPU's. OK many stands have plug-in mains voltage, but not remote parking or non-stand airports of which there are many.
If your company SOP says turn it on and leave it on because you may forget (or be to stupid) to turn it on when you need it,
Wouldn't it be nice, just once, to be treated as intelligent and told why a strange sounding SOP is introduced? Understanding why we do something not only educates and informs, it helps one to remember and appreciate why it is being done; rather than just complaining that some dimwit has decreed it.
That philosophy was told to me after the introduction of B757/767 to our fleet; especially in winter. It cost a bit in GPU time though. I guess the tree huggers would frown upon a GPU being on for 6 hours every evening; so why not an electronics battery cart? Why have a diesel noisy GPU chugging away. Where's TESLA when you need them? That's an idea. Think of the worldwide need for battery carts instead of GPU's. All this guff about shutting down APU's and plugging in GPU's. OK many stands have plug-in mains voltage, but not remote parking or non-stand airports of which there are many.
If your company SOP says turn it on and leave it on because you may forget (or be to stupid) to turn it on when you need it,
Wouldn't it be nice, just once, to be treated as intelligent and told why a strange sounding SOP is introduced? Understanding why we do something not only educates and informs, it helps one to remember and appreciate why it is being done; rather than just complaining that some dimwit has decreed it.
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After takeoff I pull all three Radio Altimeter circuit breakers. I figure there's no sense in putting the wear and tear on those systems when they're not needed. And, hey, it's not like I won't see the ground coming!
I push them back in prior to TOD, just basic airmanship and all that.
I push them back in prior to TOD, just basic airmanship and all that.
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The control panel is completely different. You'd know if you had it installed. It works quite well, and one of the nice features is that ND warning.
I couldn't find a picture handy, but this youtube video has a shot of a one of the model variants at 37:48
https://youtu.be/ZcNPacgEEXY
Last edited by Check Airman; 8th Aug 2017 at 05:01.
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Even in CAVOK one has to periodically adjust the tilt to get the ground echo on top of the screen to ensure it is working adjusted properly. It's something like the ND you don't leave it in one mode and range for rest of the flight but adjust to get some awareness from it. About a pilot forgetting to turn something on has reached a new dimension after the landing gear incident. So I will not bet anything on it.
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We ordered some new airplanes that have a completely different wx radar. (Not sure if I'd consider it next gen)
The control panel is completely different. You'd know if you had it installed. It works quite well, and one of the nice features is that ND warning.
I couldn't find a picture handy, but this youtube video has a shot of a one of the model variants at 37:48
https://youtu.be/ZcNPacgEEXY
The control panel is completely different. You'd know if you had it installed. It works quite well, and one of the nice features is that ND warning.
I couldn't find a picture handy, but this youtube video has a shot of a one of the model variants at 37:48
https://youtu.be/ZcNPacgEEXY
Hello Airman,
Thank you. the video is very informative.
Our newer aircraft only use the Rockwell Collins WXR-2100. I quite like it except the auto mode has its limitation. I use to be lazy and trusted it 100% and keep the gain in calibrated but then a couple of times we will be climbing or cruising peacefully at night and the radar will show nothing or just some green patches and as soon as you get closer, all of the sudden some green patches appear or worst case the previous green patches become amber not even 20 miles from the cell and we ended up in moderate turbulence... I guess that's why they recommend to use the manual mode in a regular basis.. I won't do that mistake twice... hopefully.
Edit: Ok, thanks to Airman link, I found a very helpful video about the Rockwell Collins Radar and around 45min it explains why all of the sudden some green or orange patches appear. if you guys are interested, here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_2NruqjQi4
Last edited by pineteam; 8th Aug 2017 at 09:36. Reason: added one link
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Isn't the IAE engine mostly built by RR?