Visual approaches Radio Minimums or Baro
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,766
Likes: 424
From: GA, USA
OP,
Are you talking about published visual approaches approaches like into EWR or a "visual approach" after you've reported the airport in sight?
Personally I dislike visual approaches so I won't call the airport in sight unless I'm somewhat lined up with the landing runway in which case I'll fly the published minima for the relevant instrument approach anyway.
Even on a "visual approach" I call out 'minimums, landing' and I back up baro with the RA.
Are you talking about published visual approaches approaches like into EWR or a "visual approach" after you've reported the airport in sight?
Personally I dislike visual approaches so I won't call the airport in sight unless I'm somewhat lined up with the landing runway in which case I'll fly the published minima for the relevant instrument approach anyway.
Even on a "visual approach" I call out 'minimums, landing' and I back up baro with the RA.
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 562
Likes: 0
Topics like this make me smile. It shows how people view aviation differently to others.
I flew into Minorca a couple of days ago and you could see the airfield from TOD. We were number 1 and cleared for a viz approach. All fully briefed and as expected.
All my FO was interested in was "what is the DH".
My response " fully stable by 1000' or we go around" again as briefed.
I feel my generation does see aviation slightly differently to the youngsters. No criticism at all but dinosaurs like me who are happy to look out the window and land will soon be outlawed.
I flew into Minorca a couple of days ago and you could see the airfield from TOD. We were number 1 and cleared for a viz approach. All fully briefed and as expected.
All my FO was interested in was "what is the DH".
My response " fully stable by 1000' or we go around" again as briefed.
I feel my generation does see aviation slightly differently to the youngsters. No criticism at all but dinosaurs like me who are happy to look out the window and land will soon be outlawed.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
Likes: 5
From: Wor Yerm
I'm getting the impression some people are scared of flying. Others appear to unable to fly unless they have rules, regulations and procedures to hang onto like a security blanket. We are talking about a simple procedure where you decide where to point the aircraft and not ATC. And there is no MDA, because you have sufficient visual reference to continue, like you do at the end of an instrument approach. It's just that this happens a lot earlier.
Given the choice, I'll always do a visual approach and I consider myself very fortunate in so much that I normally get to do one or two a week. It's just a shame that there are no visual departures because I'd like to do those as well. But that would be too radical because airports like to make the same houses suffer on every departure.
PM
Given the choice, I'll always do a visual approach and I consider myself very fortunate in so much that I normally get to do one or two a week. It's just a shame that there are no visual departures because I'd like to do those as well. But that would be too radical because airports like to make the same houses suffer on every departure.
PM
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
Likes: 2
From: north of barlu
Piltdown man
You have hit the nail on the head, the usual reason for hiding behind rules regulations and SOP's is a lack of manual flying skill and self confidence.
The rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools.
The rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 413
Likes: 1
From: 1500' AMSL
This is so true "A&C" ! Regulatiions and SOPs are now taken as dogmas that can't even be questioned without being categorized as a "deviant"
Binary reasoning logic need system managers robots, and pilots have been warned few years ago !
Binary reasoning logic need system managers robots, and pilots have been warned few years ago !
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,766
Likes: 424
From: GA, USA
Why the hate for visuals?
NTSB: Southwest pilots ?did not realize they were at wrong airport until they landed? | Safety content from ATWOnline
Sriwijaya Air Pilot Suspended for Landing at Wrong Airport
Because at the end of a 14hr duty day I like my job...that's why..
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 279
Likes: 3
From: 43N
SOP, rules, and regulations have made commercial aviation the success it currently is. To argue otherwise, to argue SOP are only for the NOOBs is BS. 81 percent of incidents between 1979 and 1994 had the Captain as PF. A statistic which should make thinking men think.
We have over 13,000 pilots at my carrier. There are over 2000 pilots on my fleet alone. Without SOP we would have 2000 independent operators.
I shake my head when I read stuff I have seen on this thread. Don't like your SOP, get it changed. Intentional SOP non compliance? There is a litany accidents attributed to that. A pilot killing him or herself because he or she is so stupid to think they know better than everyone else and intentionally violate SOP is unfortunate.
What pisses me off to high heaven is when they kill their passengers in the process of being so incredibly stupid.
We have over 13,000 pilots at my carrier. There are over 2000 pilots on my fleet alone. Without SOP we would have 2000 independent operators.
I shake my head when I read stuff I have seen on this thread. Don't like your SOP, get it changed. Intentional SOP non compliance? There is a litany accidents attributed to that. A pilot killing him or herself because he or she is so stupid to think they know better than everyone else and intentionally violate SOP is unfortunate.
What pisses me off to high heaven is when they kill their passengers in the process of being so incredibly stupid.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 39
From: Wanderlust
A an C
The rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools.
These are famous last words in many accidents. Unless you are a bird you are not wise in air since you have no instincts. When you abandon SOPs you are like a blind man in unknown territory.
The rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools.
These are famous last words in many accidents. Unless you are a bird you are not wise in air since you have no instincts. When you abandon SOPs you are like a blind man in unknown territory.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
Likes: 5
From: Wor Yerm
I may have given the impression that I ignore the rules and SOPs relevant to my operation. I don't. But I'm very fortunate in so much that we can do most things because our SOPs (virtually the manufacturer's, word for word, including typos and spelling mistakes) are flexible enough to cover most things that we need to be able to do to fly safely and efficiently. But this flexibility also allows those with, shall we say 'less confidence', to take a more conservative approach (if that is the right word). I'm part of broad church - probably one with many gods. But it does work.
PM
PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
From: Gold Coast
SOP, rules, and regulations have made commercial aviation the success it currently is. To argue otherwise, to argue SOP are only for the NOOBs is BS. 81 percent of incidents between 1979 and 1994 had the Captain as PF. A statistic which should make thinking men think.
We have over 13,000 pilots at my carrier. There are over 2000 pilots on my fleet alone. Without SOP we would have 2000 independent operators.
I shake my head when I read stuff I have seen on this thread. Don't like your SOP, get it changed. Intentional SOP non compliance? There is a litany accidents attributed to that. A pilot killing him or herself because he or she is so stupid to think they know better than everyone else and intentionally violate SOP is unfortunate.
What pisses me off to high heaven is when they kill their passengers in the process of being so incredibly stupid.
We have over 13,000 pilots at my carrier. There are over 2000 pilots on my fleet alone. Without SOP we would have 2000 independent operators.
I shake my head when I read stuff I have seen on this thread. Don't like your SOP, get it changed. Intentional SOP non compliance? There is a litany accidents attributed to that. A pilot killing him or herself because he or she is so stupid to think they know better than everyone else and intentionally violate SOP is unfortunate.
What pisses me off to high heaven is when they kill their passengers in the process of being so incredibly stupid.
At my airline we only fly A320s. Our SOP says to insert an "appropriate" number in the appropriate minimums field. On a visual that would mean leaving it blank. I fly with plenty of guys who put the ils mins there, which is "inappropriate" because we are not flying an ils.
And I hate the extra auto call outs. I don't need the airplane shouting things right before I land when I'd rather not miss ATC clearing an airplane to take off on an intersecting runway.
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 751
Likes: 72
From: Netherlands
We fly visual approaches regularly at our home base. It is actively encouraged by our training dept. It pays off, because it adds confidence, which is something that is not measurable in dollars or euro's.
You can't buy confidence.
So. which main ports around the globe offer visual approaches on a regular basis?
Amsterdam
JFK
Copenhagen
Osaka Kansai
You can't buy confidence.
So. which main ports around the globe offer visual approaches on a regular basis?
Amsterdam
JFK
Copenhagen
Osaka Kansai
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,246
Likes: 7
From: EU
A 'visual approach' at my carrier has evolved into a self-positioned non-precision approach with a 'FAF' and a requirement to use the automatics until established on final approach and a minima 500' above AD elevation.
This has arguably come about because of so many 'ace pilots' mis-flying their visual approaches and setting off the EGPWS or contravening criterion of the OFDM, but it's also part of a forward-looking policy to have SOPs that cater for the lower level of hand flying experience in the flight deck.
Given that this is a civilian transport operation and not a Red Bull air-race, it's arguably an understandably cautious attitude by the airline. A catch-22 too. Less practice means less spatial awareness. Less spatial awareness leads to some people blindly trusting the instruments and FMC.
This has arguably come about because of so many 'ace pilots' mis-flying their visual approaches and setting off the EGPWS or contravening criterion of the OFDM, but it's also part of a forward-looking policy to have SOPs that cater for the lower level of hand flying experience in the flight deck.
Given that this is a civilian transport operation and not a Red Bull air-race, it's arguably an understandably cautious attitude by the airline. A catch-22 too. Less practice means less spatial awareness. Less spatial awareness leads to some people blindly trusting the instruments and FMC.
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 57
Likes: 1
From: UK
The visual approach can be a useful TEM tool. There may certain threats associated with a certain conventional IAP to the runway in use. Take EGPF rwy 23 for example - the terrain and subsequent MRVA means that radar vectoring can be quite precise, in particular the timings at which lower altitude clearances are given. All it takes is one long transmission on the freq and one may not receive clearance to descend and become rather high rather quickly. Subsequent ILS intercept inside the FAF and above the glideslope can and does happen. There is also the possibility of EGPWS warnings if one is working hard to recover the situation. A positive ISA deviation and temperature error in summer can also exacerbate the scenario. I have seen a variety of effective mitigation measures used by crews.
Another solution, however, is to avoid the threats altogether. Flying a visual approach to anywhere between a 3 to 6 mile final keeps one inside the terrain, and avoids the need to rely on lower radar altitudes. I find this is a useful way of selling the idea to a less confident crew member. This obviously requires the weather to be conducive, which I'll admit isn't a particularly common occurrence in this part of the world...
It seems now to be commonly agreed that non-precision approaches carry a higher degree of risk than an ILS. I find a visual approach is also a way of avoiding risk here - In my experience, attempting to predict FMC/FMGC behaviour, and hoping it does what you want it to do, involves reasonably high workload. What really saps capacity is when it doesn't go as planned, and (hopefully just) one head goes down in an attempt to recover the situation through the MCDU. This tends to lead to a loss of situational awareness in my experience. I find I use much less capacity by putting the aircraft where I want it to be by looking outside, or indeed monitoring my mate instead of pushing the wrong buttons!
Again, the weather must be conducive, but at somewhere like LFMN, for example, how often is one IMC at the FAF at 3000' only for the Airfield to appear before reaching MDA of 2000'? As for the other end - What's the point if flying down this (relatively) precise 3 degree approach only to level off before the final descent?
Another solution, however, is to avoid the threats altogether. Flying a visual approach to anywhere between a 3 to 6 mile final keeps one inside the terrain, and avoids the need to rely on lower radar altitudes. I find this is a useful way of selling the idea to a less confident crew member. This obviously requires the weather to be conducive, which I'll admit isn't a particularly common occurrence in this part of the world...
It seems now to be commonly agreed that non-precision approaches carry a higher degree of risk than an ILS. I find a visual approach is also a way of avoiding risk here - In my experience, attempting to predict FMC/FMGC behaviour, and hoping it does what you want it to do, involves reasonably high workload. What really saps capacity is when it doesn't go as planned, and (hopefully just) one head goes down in an attempt to recover the situation through the MCDU. This tends to lead to a loss of situational awareness in my experience. I find I use much less capacity by putting the aircraft where I want it to be by looking outside, or indeed monitoring my mate instead of pushing the wrong buttons!
Again, the weather must be conducive, but at somewhere like LFMN, for example, how often is one IMC at the FAF at 3000' only for the Airfield to appear before reaching MDA of 2000'? As for the other end - What's the point if flying down this (relatively) precise 3 degree approach only to level off before the final descent?
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 4
From: last time I looked I was still here.
It does seem a mountain from a mole hill discussion. These comments relate to a normal IFR airline operation. I do appreciate, and have done many times, approaches into pure visual airfields with perhaps a cloud-break first.
If you are making a visual to a runway with an approach aid why NOT set the minima for that? You would have briefed before TOD and out of sight of the airfield, therefore would have briefed and set up for relevant approach.
If you are making a visual direct to a circling runway why NOT set circling minimum?
If you are making a pure visual why NOT set THR + 500' as a trigger for the stable/GA/continue decision point?
I don't understand guys wanting to overcomplicate a simple scenario. Do guys really re-set bugs during approach? If you are making a short turn visual onto a rwy with an ILS transmitting - for which you have the bugs and aids set up - is anybody going to change anything, or just fly the damn a/c?
If you are making a visual to a runway with an approach aid why NOT set the minima for that? You would have briefed before TOD and out of sight of the airfield, therefore would have briefed and set up for relevant approach.
If you are making a visual direct to a circling runway why NOT set circling minimum?
If you are making a pure visual why NOT set THR + 500' as a trigger for the stable/GA/continue decision point?
I don't understand guys wanting to overcomplicate a simple scenario. Do guys really re-set bugs during approach? If you are making a short turn visual onto a rwy with an ILS transmitting - for which you have the bugs and aids set up - is anybody going to change anything, or just fly the damn a/c?
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 422
Likes: 5
From: 5° above the Equator, 75° left of Greenwich
I may qualify for the more "simple-minded" kind of guy someone else said before. If you're on a visual, well, fly visual for god's sake. We are flying airplanes with two pilots, one of them is supposed to monitor. If company policy is to be stable at 500' or 1000' AAL for visual (we use 1000), then the PM should be paying attention (even more below said height) the PF doesn't fly the aircraft out of stable approach. No need for minimums callouts or what have you. Even most airplanes will call out 1000 or 500 for you, it takes a special situation (or two special pilots) to miss that. No need to over-complicate things.
If you briefed for X approach and in the process of flying a visual you fly a self-vectored instrument approach (the one you just briefed) I guess it doesn't hurt to set the minimums for that approach. Even though it's absolutely irrelevant and doesn't help your cause as you should be visual (and stable) in most cases by that time, which I think is the criteria needed for a visual approach. It doesn't hurt doing it but I reckon it's as useless as men's nipples
If you briefed for X approach and in the process of flying a visual you fly a self-vectored instrument approach (the one you just briefed) I guess it doesn't hurt to set the minimums for that approach. Even though it's absolutely irrelevant and doesn't help your cause as you should be visual (and stable) in most cases by that time, which I think is the criteria needed for a visual approach. It doesn't hurt doing it but I reckon it's as useless as men's nipples