emer descent new version dec 2015 for airbus
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emer descent new version dec 2015 for airbus
Hi guys,
I don't know if you noticed but the new procedure ( memo item) EMER DESCENT in our QRH ( at least for A330/340 ) has slightly changed.
It starts with:
oxy mask....................................use
signs...........................................on
emer descent.......................initiate.
I just wanted to enhance that fact that after having doned your O2 mask , there is no interphone use : it use to permit pilots to quickly realize they were both operational and able to start their tasks.
the signs have now priority for passengers and pax, no " emergency descent" call from the pnf to the crew anymore to indicate about the beginning of the procedure ...
I wanted to ask you about these modifications and the reasons why we don't do anymore these 2 actions in priority:
confirmation of communication between crew after masks on.
announcement to cc about emergency descent( the only annoucement now is later in the check list , once we have reached a secured altitude of 10000 or safe altitude, that they can remove or keep their O2 masks.
I don't know if you noticed but the new procedure ( memo item) EMER DESCENT in our QRH ( at least for A330/340 ) has slightly changed.
It starts with:
oxy mask....................................use
signs...........................................on
emer descent.......................initiate.
I just wanted to enhance that fact that after having doned your O2 mask , there is no interphone use : it use to permit pilots to quickly realize they were both operational and able to start their tasks.
the signs have now priority for passengers and pax, no " emergency descent" call from the pnf to the crew anymore to indicate about the beginning of the procedure ...
I wanted to ask you about these modifications and the reasons why we don't do anymore these 2 actions in priority:
confirmation of communication between crew after masks on.
announcement to cc about emergency descent( the only annoucement now is later in the check list , once we have reached a secured altitude of 10000 or safe altitude, that they can remove or keep their O2 masks.
There is a page somewhere in the FCOM detailing the correct calls the PF should make to initiate the actions...........I can't find it now!!
So, I can't answer your questions but in my A330 QRH
You both don your Mask and someone is supposed to make a PA to the pax.
PF starts the descent
PM does the other stuff.
No mention of establishing comms, but we do.
To me the priorities should be
Priority 1:- Oxy mask
Priority 2:- descend
Priority 3:- everything else.
So, I can't answer your questions but in my A330 QRH
You both don your Mask and someone is supposed to make a PA to the pax.
PF starts the descent
PM does the other stuff.
No mention of establishing comms, but we do.
To me the priorities should be
Priority 1:- Oxy mask
Priority 2:- descend
Priority 3:- everything else.
Last edited by ACMS; 25th Feb 2016 at 05:13.
The requirement to establish inter-pilot communication was removed as it is not essential at that stage (every pilot will know what to do) and, if, for any reason, communication can't be established, what would you do?
Descend anyway, eh...
Descend anyway, eh...
Found the page detailing calls to be made by the PM:-
PRO-NOR-SOP-90 Abnormal and Emergency callouts.
"Emergency Descent" is still listed there.
PRO-NOR-SOP-90 Abnormal and Emergency callouts.
"Emergency Descent" is still listed there.
Last edited by ACMS; 25th Feb 2016 at 06:11.
This change was made in December (A320 fleet) for commonality with the A350 - presumably so the CCQ courses can be shorter.
I assume that the 350 needed to get down immediately to meet cabin altitude certification requirements - rather than wait a few seconds sorting stuff out then going down.
Obviously airlines are slowly modifying their procedures to catch up with the manufacturer's recommendations...
I assume that the 350 needed to get down immediately to meet cabin altitude certification requirements - rather than wait a few seconds sorting stuff out then going down.
Obviously airlines are slowly modifying their procedures to catch up with the manufacturer's recommendations...
Last edited by compressor stall; 25th Feb 2016 at 08:33.
Only half a speed-brake
chrispatrickGA: thanks for pointing out the change, I was not aware. The A320 book still have all the items, the sequence is re-worked. See the boxed items in picture below.
FCOM, dates as per the DU headers DEC-2013 / NOV-2015:
FCOM, dates as per the DU headers DEC-2013 / NOV-2015:
Priorities.
The cabin crew announcement only crept in a couple of years ago. Personally I don't think it's that important in the grand scheme of things so can wait.
Also as for establishing comms between crew, what do you do if you don't get it? Stay s&l and resolve? The answer is obvious to us, but may not be to some (cultures).
The new method is unambiguous. Clear memory items, get the aircraft going down then sort out the other stuff.
By the way, you didn't mention the new lack of altitude restriction on extending the landing gear.....
Also as for establishing comms between crew, what do you do if you don't get it? Stay s&l and resolve? The answer is obvious to us, but may not be to some (cultures).
The new method is unambiguous. Clear memory items, get the aircraft going down then sort out the other stuff.
By the way, you didn't mention the new lack of altitude restriction on extending the landing gear.....
Only half a speed-brake
The original poster mentioned two missing items, hence the two boxes.
I do notice lot of explanatory italics text removed, but I think that's a methodology issue to allow for quick execution of the paper C/L, the expanded information itself is retained in the FCTM. Similar to QRH for unreliable airspeed, and personally I rather like it.
Noted well, that FCTM becomes less of an instructor book and more of FCOM supplement. The FCOM bulletins went same direction.
As for the cabin call, my opinion differs - it is greatly important. AFAIK it was introduced in the aftermath of Helios Airways 522. Most of the logic lies with cabin crew procedures: if there are indications of pressure loss but no announcement from flightdeck, get there at all cost as everybody's lives may depend on it (summarized).
I do notice lot of explanatory italics text removed, but I think that's a methodology issue to allow for quick execution of the paper C/L, the expanded information itself is retained in the FCTM. Similar to QRH for unreliable airspeed, and personally I rather like it.
Noted well, that FCTM becomes less of an instructor book and more of FCOM supplement. The FCOM bulletins went same direction.
As for the cabin call, my opinion differs - it is greatly important. AFAIK it was introduced in the aftermath of Helios Airways 522. Most of the logic lies with cabin crew procedures: if there are indications of pressure loss but no announcement from flightdeck, get there at all cost as everybody's lives may depend on it (summarized).
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Thanks guys for your diverse remarks:
I,personally,believe that checking that his partner has doned his O2 mask properly and quickly communicate with him after having set the interphone can be done easily in the first minute after the depressurization... Legally it's feasible, now in practice some of us would reply that putting the plane to 10000 ft / safety altitude is more important at that stage....
Again , I prefer to work with someone than to go down to 10000 ft and realize the other one is dead... but its just my own judgement.
Concerning the cabin crew call... its quite obvious than having the O2 masks in the cabin dropping indicates clearly that some decompression occurs... except if it is a wrong manoeuver... or a sytem failure. Crm wise , I think it s better to advise them quickly about the emergency descent by a call: it takes 2 sec, and they know we are still alive and in charge totally with the prob.
Obviously, Airbus took another orientation with this procedure...
I noted the idea of the A350 standardization, I have to verify this fact...
Finally , as mentionned very correctly as well, there is no note about the gear use and the corresponding max VLO and altitude associated with it.
Maybe someone can check directly with airbus and let us understand why this procedure has changed in that way.
Thanks to all of you.
I,personally,believe that checking that his partner has doned his O2 mask properly and quickly communicate with him after having set the interphone can be done easily in the first minute after the depressurization... Legally it's feasible, now in practice some of us would reply that putting the plane to 10000 ft / safety altitude is more important at that stage....
Again , I prefer to work with someone than to go down to 10000 ft and realize the other one is dead... but its just my own judgement.
Concerning the cabin crew call... its quite obvious than having the O2 masks in the cabin dropping indicates clearly that some decompression occurs... except if it is a wrong manoeuver... or a sytem failure. Crm wise , I think it s better to advise them quickly about the emergency descent by a call: it takes 2 sec, and they know we are still alive and in charge totally with the prob.
Obviously, Airbus took another orientation with this procedure...
I noted the idea of the A350 standardization, I have to verify this fact...
Finally , as mentionned very correctly as well, there is no note about the gear use and the corresponding max VLO and altitude associated with it.
Maybe someone can check directly with airbus and let us understand why this procedure has changed in that way.
Thanks to all of you.
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compressor stall, I found , indeed, some info about the AED ( no its not the emirati currency, but the Automatic Emergency descent...)
Have a look at the following link....
http://www.ae-expo.eu/wp-content/upl...e-2015-AED.pdf
It may be a beginning of a reply from Airbus...
Have a look at the following link....
http://www.ae-expo.eu/wp-content/upl...e-2015-AED.pdf
It may be a beginning of a reply from Airbus...
Only half a speed-brake
Obviously, Airbus took another orientation with this procedure...
(both) OXY ... ON
(PM) seat belts ... on
(PM) ignition ... on
(PM) ATC ... notify
(PM) PA ... alert CC
5 seconds from when the mask is on.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 25th Feb 2016 at 22:05. Reason: counted to five this time
Interesting link Chris - thanks. One I hadn't seen.
Safe life: The following is from the notice of Airbus FCOM changes in December re the emergency descent:
And for those on Flysmart, if you select the explanatory notes tab you get all the reasoning and logic for the changes in blue on the page.
Safe life: The following is from the notice of Airbus FCOM changes in December re the emergency descent:
- Memory actions identification:
The memory items are written in such a way that the flight crew should easily identify the actions that they should perform by memory.
Therefore, all action lines identified as memory items in the EMERGENCY DESCENT procedure are surrounded by a thin solid line box.
- The Passenger Address announcement of the emergency descent to the cabin is moved after the ATC notification. This comes from a certification requirement on A350, in order not to delay the initiation of the emergency descent. The other programs have been harmonized with A350 procedure
The memory items are written in such a way that the flight crew should easily identify the actions that they should perform by memory.
Therefore, all action lines identified as memory items in the EMERGENCY DESCENT procedure are surrounded by a thin solid line box.
- The Passenger Address announcement of the emergency descent to the cabin is moved after the ATC notification. This comes from a certification requirement on A350, in order not to delay the initiation of the emergency descent. The other programs have been harmonized with A350 procedure
FAR 25.841 - Certification Requirements
(1) If certification for operation above 25,000 feet is requested, the airplane must be designed so that occupants will not be exposed to cabin pressure altitudes in excess of 15,000 feet after any probable failure condition in the pressurization system.
(2) The airplane must be designed so that occupants will not be exposed to a cabin pressure altitude that exceeds the following after decompression from any failure condition not shown to be extremely improbable:
(i) Twenty-five thousand (25,000) feet for more than 2 minutes; or
(ii) Forty thousand (40,000) feet for any duration.
(2) The airplane must be designed so that occupants will not be exposed to a cabin pressure altitude that exceeds the following after decompression from any failure condition not shown to be extremely improbable:
(i) Twenty-five thousand (25,000) feet for more than 2 minutes; or
(ii) Forty thousand (40,000) feet for any duration.
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Interestingly, although the procedure in the FCOM has the establish communications part removed in the initial part after donning of the oxygen masks, if you refer to the FCTM, establishing communications with your colleague is still part of the oxygen mask donning procedure, before everything else is illustrated.
Someone once pointed out to me too, "Signs" here refers to both the "Seat Belts" and "No Smoking" switches.
Any thoughts?
A320 here.
Someone once pointed out to me too, "Signs" here refers to both the "Seat Belts" and "No Smoking" switches.
Any thoughts?
A320 here.
Only half a speed-brake
It's tricky to discuss the content of specific paragraphs, unless we have a reference and date of the DU / quote.
SIGNS: on modern modifications, that would mean "no electronic devices" too?
Drift: anybody heard of toilets' oxy generators being removed?
SIGNS: on modern modifications, that would mean "no electronic devices" too?
Drift: anybody heard of toilets' oxy generators being removed?
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The "No Electronic Devices" sign, I wonder if they are redundant nowadays? Since many authorities allow passengers to use their personal devices on takeoffs and landings as long as they are in flight mode?
In my manuals, the oxygen masks are still in our lavatories. Silly question though, anyone know where exactly it is at? I've never seen it before.
In my manuals, the oxygen masks are still in our lavatories. Silly question though, anyone know where exactly it is at? I've never seen it before.
