1 or 2 steering tillers?
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I would assume that the SOP's lederhosen is referring to explicitly allow FO's to use the LH tiller if that could save some time for emergency services to attend to an incapacitated captain (switching seats after landing. No one suggested landing from an unfamiliar seat). Regardless of SOPs, if the captain is incapacitated, it's an emergency and the FO as PIC may do whatever it takes. If there's a fast turn off, fine, use the pedals, if you stop on the runway and there are airstairs nearby, fine, but if it's an airport where using the tiller would help, for gods sake let the PIC make that decision. I think the FO on United Flight 1637 switched seats to use the tiller to get help for an incapacitated captain and I wouldn't ever second-guess someone who does. It's a decision that needs to be taken depending on circumstances, you can't create general rules for every emergency.
Just for clarification I was talking about switching seats on the ground. If you only have one tiller the co-pilots need to be aware of this option. Stopping on the runway or on a taxiway may well be better. It depends on the circumstances. With American in Syracuse the co-pilot intended to stop on a taxiway. But the responders did not have steps so he carried on to a gate. Thanks to Deptrai who has meanwhile covered some things I would otherwise have mentioned.
Just to clarify from my previous post... I am perfectly happy for the FO to taxi, but I will not be distracted from watching proceedings, and not doing checklists or engine starts/shutdowns etc.
The argument about landing vs taxiing is irrelevant, as during landing the Captain is focused on the flying, and ready to take over, whereas during taxi, SOPs may have him doing other duties.
How many airlines have the same wind/xwind limits for Both crew?
The day the laws change to say an FO landing or taxiing is totally and solely responsible for any incident, (not the Captain) then life becomes much simpler!
The argument about landing vs taxiing is irrelevant, as during landing the Captain is focused on the flying, and ready to take over, whereas during taxi, SOPs may have him doing other duties.
How many airlines have the same wind/xwind limits for Both crew?
The day the laws change to say an FO landing or taxiing is totally and solely responsible for any incident, (not the Captain) then life becomes much simpler!
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it would be interesting to see some hard numbers. In airlines where FOs taxi, are there more taxiing incidents?
I'm making a bold assumption, if FOs are properly trained, that's not the case. I'd stipulate that taxiing an aircraft isn't more difficult to learn than driving a car/bus/truck/motorbike: after observing taxiing for a reasonable amount of time, you may need 40-60 hours of practice under competent supervision to become somewhat proficient (that's what it usually takes to pass a drivers licence test in some countries) and while that doesn't make you an expert, it will allow you to grow your skill set and experience.
The responsibility question is real though (CYA...), yet, would you rather be a passenger with a captain who was first introduced to taxiing on his command upgrade course (how many hours of taxiing?), or someone who has years of experience? In summary, I don't think RH tillers are such a bad idea.
I'm making a bold assumption, if FOs are properly trained, that's not the case. I'd stipulate that taxiing an aircraft isn't more difficult to learn than driving a car/bus/truck/motorbike: after observing taxiing for a reasonable amount of time, you may need 40-60 hours of practice under competent supervision to become somewhat proficient (that's what it usually takes to pass a drivers licence test in some countries) and while that doesn't make you an expert, it will allow you to grow your skill set and experience.
The responsibility question is real though (CYA...), yet, would you rather be a passenger with a captain who was first introduced to taxiing on his command upgrade course (how many hours of taxiing?), or someone who has years of experience? In summary, I don't think RH tillers are such a bad idea.
Last edited by deptrai; 12th Oct 2015 at 13:26.
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I find some ideas here quite ironic. So on 2-tiller aircraft you would not let a FO practice his taxiing skills in normal operations, yet he has the full capacity to do so in case of captain incapacitation, despite that the last time he tried to taxi was in the sim during his conversion course?
Have to agree with Flying Stone. The concept of a co-pilot landing the a/c single-handed from the RHS, stopping the a/c safely, applying the parking brake, and then adrenalin-hopping over to the LHS to taxi a large, long a/c for the first time ever at fairly high speed to the ramp area to save the pre-ordered steps-truck and ambulance a gallon of petrol strikes me as totally bonkers...
Far wiser to stay put, run the after-landing checklist carefully, and prepare the a/c for the arrival of the steps and paramedics. That would include starting the APU if available, shutting down the appropriate engine(s), and liaising with the emergency services by R/T and the senior cabin-crew member verbally.
Far wiser to stay put, run the after-landing checklist carefully, and prepare the a/c for the arrival of the steps and paramedics. That would include starting the APU if available, shutting down the appropriate engine(s), and liaising with the emergency services by R/T and the senior cabin-crew member verbally.
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How many airlines have the same wind/xwind limits for Both crew?
A new FO (less than 100hrs on type) is usually restricted in terms of takeoff and landing visibility, runway contamination, crosswind etc.
At the completion of 100hrs, both crewmembers have the same limits. I expect that you'll find a few oddball companies that restrict their FO's, but they're the exception.
I find the no taxi thing to be odd as well. The FO is competent to depart with 500RVR, land in a 30+kt crosswind after a CAT 1 approach to minimums, yet getting to the gate at 15kt is beyond his experience...
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Just for clarification I was talking about switching seats on the ground
My experience; 757,767,747 FO taxis for his/her sector, Capt does final bit on stand if equipment requires it. On the 747 some times necessary to drop a gentle hint when it was obvious the FO thought the nose wheel was a lot further back than it is and was a bit late turning in.
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TILLER (s) ?
The Avro YORK had a tail wheel and was steered on the ground by the use of the brakes, with a bit of extra throttle from No 1 or No 4 as required.
The A/P, driven by No 1, tended to pump the elevator about 40 times per minute... when it worked. The A/P controls were by the Captain's left hand. So durng long flights the two pilots had to swap seats- at cruising level, remembering NOT to use the flying controls as a hand grip. The two pilots might be on duty for 20 + hours, each hand flying for an hour at a time , some 8 hours each, on two sectors. NO FTL.
ALL T/Os and Landings were done from the Left seat - the four throttles were easier to reach and control from the left seat. ( A bit of a stretch from the right seat for those with shorter left arm.)
I had done my " LEGAL SIX " T/O and landings with the Chief Pilot. and was the least experienced F/O in the Company. I asked the Training Captain with whom I was flying "why me." He said that it because I used a sextant and could serve as a back-up for our Straight Navigator on flights across the Atlantic. The rest of the crew (N/O, R/O & G/E) told me that "If the Captain became ill- they would have to rely on ME ! "
LT
The A/P, driven by No 1, tended to pump the elevator about 40 times per minute... when it worked. The A/P controls were by the Captain's left hand. So durng long flights the two pilots had to swap seats- at cruising level, remembering NOT to use the flying controls as a hand grip. The two pilots might be on duty for 20 + hours, each hand flying for an hour at a time , some 8 hours each, on two sectors. NO FTL.
ALL T/Os and Landings were done from the Left seat - the four throttles were easier to reach and control from the left seat. ( A bit of a stretch from the right seat for those with shorter left arm.)
I had done my " LEGAL SIX " T/O and landings with the Chief Pilot. and was the least experienced F/O in the Company. I asked the Training Captain with whom I was flying "why me." He said that it because I used a sextant and could serve as a back-up for our Straight Navigator on flights across the Atlantic. The rest of the crew (N/O, R/O & G/E) told me that "If the Captain became ill- they would have to rely on ME ! "
LT
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My SEVENTH York T/O and landing LHS were seven months later, after 100+ sectors, having sat, patiently in the York's RHS. We were all glad that I had not forgotten what to do ! ( Training at Austers and then Hamble, had ALL been flying from the LHS ,and with a tailwheel ( except for Tiger Moths, of course. )
The York was not pressurised and had no radar. Flying in rain could mean wet knees, until a blanket was found. Cbs could not always be avoided. I learned to ease up on any precision of my hand flying.
" Stay reasonably straight and reasonably level.."
Someone had tried to do something else with a bad outcome.
( It might have been a Skyways Dove.)
LT
The York was not pressurised and had no radar. Flying in rain could mean wet knees, until a blanket was found. Cbs could not always be avoided. I learned to ease up on any precision of my hand flying.
" Stay reasonably straight and reasonably level.."
Someone had tried to do something else with a bad outcome.
( It might have been a Skyways Dove.)
LT
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I must fly with different F/Os in different types of aircraft because I haven't yet met an F/O who couldn't taxi an aircraft. So please would somebody tell me the names of the airline's where the F/Os are incapable of taxing an aircraft (when fitted with a tiller). I'd also like a list of the companies where they employ captains who think F/Os aren't up to the job of taxiing. These below average average companies must be avoided at all costs.
PM
PM
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From a MX aspect, the first aircraft I taxied was a 742 from the RT seat. It was just as easy as towing the aircraft. I suppose watching the aircraft movement on the ground was an asset. I would suggest for a pilot to pay more attention to the position of the aircraft being operated under tow, during push back or other operations to gain a feel for where you are in respect to where the aircraft actually is on the ground. The seat is not a big deal (rt or lt). Break riding you can learn your nose gear position by simply watching taxi lines for your specific aircraft. Not really a big deal at all.
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So I've been flying high performance large turbo props and jets for about 17 years now. About half that time was in the military and half with an airline. I'm an FO because most airlines operate a seniority system, it will probably be another 10 years before I get a command.
Are there really pilots on here that think that with my experience I'm not up to taxiing? Did I read right that someone was suggesting you need 40-60 hours of supervision before being competent to taxi?
I'm constantly amazed at the shear arrogance of some people in this industry. Who are these guys that think that because they are the captain only they can make a good decision and the FO shouldn't be trusted? How did I lose my ability to make decisions, and even taxi, when I moved from being a captain in the military to an FO in an airline? In my airline there are guys who have held widebody commands or been highly experienced military pilots, and because of our seniority system they are second officers who aren't allowed to sit in a window seat till they are above 20k.
Some people really need to get a grip.
Are there really pilots on here that think that with my experience I'm not up to taxiing? Did I read right that someone was suggesting you need 40-60 hours of supervision before being competent to taxi?
I'm constantly amazed at the shear arrogance of some people in this industry. Who are these guys that think that because they are the captain only they can make a good decision and the FO shouldn't be trusted? How did I lose my ability to make decisions, and even taxi, when I moved from being a captain in the military to an FO in an airline? In my airline there are guys who have held widebody commands or been highly experienced military pilots, and because of our seniority system they are second officers who aren't allowed to sit in a window seat till they are above 20k.
Some people really need to get a grip.
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Wonderful, LT - thanks!
LT - When my Dad was a kid in the lat 40's, he had a pair of Dinky Avro York planes; and when i was a kid, I used to hold them out of the window of our old Morris Oxford and marvel at how the wing provided lift right up to the stall - my first lessons in aerodynamics, in fact!
So there's something rather special to read your reminiscences about flying the real thing. Thanks for sharing.
R
Zimbabwe
So there's something rather special to read your reminiscences about flying the real thing. Thanks for sharing.
R
Zimbabwe
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RCSA,
Thank you for your comment.
I mentioned "Precision" in #54...
In smoother conditions the Captain might leave me hand-flying and walk to the toilet. Some of our toilets were near the tail of the York (others just aft of the F/D). We carried 40 passengers in "4 across rearward seating" ie. 10 rows. The York responded to this alteration of C of G by increasing the indicated airspeed speed by 1 or 2 kts, if I maintained my correct cruising level. When the Captain returned, the speed soon reverted to the 160 - 165 kts that it had been.
RVSM and wider cabins with 6 or more seats across and security makes this effect harder to observe. ( Captains weigh a smaller percentage of an aircraft's A.U.W. !)
LT
Thank you for your comment.
I mentioned "Precision" in #54...
In smoother conditions the Captain might leave me hand-flying and walk to the toilet. Some of our toilets were near the tail of the York (others just aft of the F/D). We carried 40 passengers in "4 across rearward seating" ie. 10 rows. The York responded to this alteration of C of G by increasing the indicated airspeed speed by 1 or 2 kts, if I maintained my correct cruising level. When the Captain returned, the speed soon reverted to the 160 - 165 kts that it had been.
RVSM and wider cabins with 6 or more seats across and security makes this effect harder to observe. ( Captains weigh a smaller percentage of an aircraft's A.U.W. !)
LT
@juliet,
Well said.
Well said.
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Juliet
Seniority CAN be difficult.
When FTL came into force, two Captains and one F/O were required for our longer duties. Many Captains had joined from their previous employer at the same time and with similar backgrounds. They had all been S/F/Os who "had come with the aircraft" This was resolved so the Captain whose name was first in the alphabet would be IN COMMAND on the flight away from base, and the other was IN COMMAND for the return flight. (As the only F/O, I just had to remember whose word was LAW !)
As a 400 hour new CPL I had had to Check and Certify that my Employer and Chief Pilot was fit to fly IN COMMAND of the Rapide, which he owned, and for which I held the Type Rating. (Just how long the job would have lasted if I HAD FAILED him ... Is a matter for conjecture.)
LT
Seniority CAN be difficult.
When FTL came into force, two Captains and one F/O were required for our longer duties. Many Captains had joined from their previous employer at the same time and with similar backgrounds. They had all been S/F/Os who "had come with the aircraft" This was resolved so the Captain whose name was first in the alphabet would be IN COMMAND on the flight away from base, and the other was IN COMMAND for the return flight. (As the only F/O, I just had to remember whose word was LAW !)
As a 400 hour new CPL I had had to Check and Certify that my Employer and Chief Pilot was fit to fly IN COMMAND of the Rapide, which he owned, and for which I held the Type Rating. (Just how long the job would have lasted if I HAD FAILED him ... Is a matter for conjecture.)
LT