Logging Night time

[Victo]

Hello, sorry for those days without replying to "my post". I've had some problems with my computer screen. It started with some dead pixels, I touched it with the fingers and then more dead pixels... I went to the shop were I bought the computer and it looks like HP will take care of the problem... So I am now without computer at home.
Thank you very much for all the replys and all the info, I will purchase the digital logbook as soon as I get my laptop back, I've been thinking for a long time to buy one, and the sooner I start with it the better it will be. I will try MCCpilotlog, as two of you recommend it to me.
Regards, again thank you!

[FullWings]

If you are flying across the Atlantic in a jet, why would you possibly care about logging night or instrument time? If you do recurrent training it takes care of the currency requirements, and if you are bringing your logbook to a job interview I doubt any one would care how much night time you have if they see you have been flying a transport jet across the pond.

Yes, quite.

Instrument time, night time, inverted asymmetric partial-panel NDB holding time, whatever. Since I obtained my licence, no-one (including me) has been the slightest bit interested in any of it. They only get excited when I'm approaching the limit for flying/duty/workdays.

If you’d done a lot of night freighting you might end up with more night hours than someone who’d done mostly aerial photography. Just a guess. Airlines are generally interested in two things: can you pass an LPC/OPC and could someone sit next to you for 12hrs and not want to punch your lights out.

Would you call following a flight director “instrument flying” any more than doing it on autopilot?

[oceancrosser]

Originally Posted by viking767

If you are flying across the Atlantic in a jet, why would you possibly care about logging night or instrument time? If you do recurrent training it takes care of the currency requirements, and if you are bringing your logbook to a job interview I doubt any one would care how much night time you have if they see you have been flying a transport jet across the pond.

Exactly. I have not logged IFR or night or day specifically since I got my ATPL. Not once has anyone, including airlines, CAAs (local,JAA,EASA) queried about this in 29 years of jet flying in worldwide operations. It is simply irrelevant in this kind of flying. All IFR day or night.

[Citation2]

"Would you call following a flight director “instrument flying” any more than doing it on autopilot?"

I would call this visual , visual with the flight directors

[AerocatS2A]

Originally Posted by Citation2

"Would you call following a flight director “instrument flying” any more than doing it on autopilot?"

I would call this visual , visual with the flight directors

I like that.

Seriously though, you still have to monitor that the FD is giving correct information and that requires an instrument scan. Some older types can get you into serious trouble if you blindly follow the FD.

[Check Airman]

Seriously though, you still have to monitor that the FD is giving correct information and that requires an instrument scan. Some older types can get you into serious trouble if you blindly follow the FD

Agree 100%, but is that really how it's being taught? The last time I was in the sim, the trainee was new to the type, and was having difficulty with SE ILS approaches. The instructor kept pushing the guy to follow the FD, even though doing so made the job harder. I use the FD bars as guidance, however it seems that many instructors teach the FD as a command.

Heaven forbid you should turn off the FD when cleared for an approach...

[Rick777]

I sure hope I never have to fly with missed again. If he thinks he can operate a jet at 350 over a cloud deck 2000 feet below and fly without instruments he is going to wind up dead.

[Check Airman]

One guy had 30% of his flight time as IMC(instrument). That meant 60% of his entire career was spent in IMC(two pilot operations).

Nope. You don't need to be PF to log IMC. IMC is a condition of flight. Both pilots log IMC simultaneously, just as you would day or night time.

Anyway, who cares how much IMC his logbook says he has? How did he do on the sim assessment? That's far more important than the numbers in the column.

[Mikehotel152]

What a peculiar discussion. I do hope nobody is being prejudiced against during recruitment for airline jobs because they don't separate their log book hours in accordance with an irrelevant criteria?

With respect, I think A Squared's quotes from the FAR 61.51 and the FAA's Chief Legal Counsel are a red herring. I don't think it's just a FAA thing either. I suspect many authorities have these out-of-date legislative passages and interpretations which don't fit with the modern airline operation.

Surely for airline pilots the 'outside conditions' would include the rules by which you are flying an airway, the radar heading assigned by ATC or the STAR/SID tracks? These rules do not require or imply any outside visual reference but they most certainly do require flying on instruments because without the instruments you could not comply.

Sub-dividing hours in to day/night and VMC/IMC conditions is quite possibly of relevance to GA or regional operators who fly primarily to small fields without instruments approaches, but to the airline industry it's arguable wholly irrelevant.

[A Squared]

Agreed that the definitions and the flight time classifications really only have significance for airman certification, and perhaps for hiring at an entry level. If you were involved in hiring at an airline which is typically hiring GA pilots, instrument time might be a means of separating applicants who have done significant IFR flying from those who have been primarily flying VFR like banner towing and carrying skydivers. For an airline far enough up on the food chain that applicants are from other airlines "instrument time" probably doesn't have much meaning. Once you have your ATP, and a couple of years of airline flying, "instrument time" and "night time" are probably pretty irrelevant.

That said, the regulation and Chief Counsel interpretation I quoted is *the* official stance of the FAA on the issue. The interpretation exists, precisely because the FAA has been asked the question, and the Interpretation is the FAA's official legal stance on what constitutes "instrument flight time".

I'm kind of at a loss for what basis you have for claiming that this is "out of date" or a red herring. Do you have anything at all to support your claim that the FAA has changed it's official legal stance on this issue? The current regulation is still worded the same, and as far as I know the FAA's Chief Counsel has not issued an interpretation which supersedes the one I quoted.

So what is your basis for claiming that this is no longer true?

[Check Airman]

I'd have to check the regs, and perhaps it varies by region, but I recall a very clear statement in a company manual around pilot recency that only Captains can log Actual instrument time as PNF back when we needed Instrument time for currency.

Perhaps that was true at one time, but the current FAA stance is that both pilots may log IMC.

[misd-agin]

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

SIC/PNF/PM can log instrument time if two crew members are required.

1999 ruling.

My comment about logging instrument time while SIC was wrong.

[Mikehotel152]

So what is your basis for claiming that this is no longer true?

'Red herring', because it's not relevant to airline flying, which was the context of the night logging query and the comments on logging IMC time.

'Out of date', in the sense that the airline industry has generally moved on and I don't think the definitions were intended to be used for modern airline operations.

So, while I'm sure it is still 'true', I don't think it's necessarily 'right'.

[Oakape]

I don't know what the problem is. It is really quite simple - look out the window.

Note the time it gets dark (or light as the case may be), then use that time along with departure time & arrival time to calculate the night hours.