flaps or gear?
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One needs to consider what a "committal height" is and what it represents.
The hard deck decision height is what a rational flight test program determines for the conditions and is a bit like the H-V curves the helo guys get twitchy about ... serious stuff.... a missed approach from a lower level is most likely to be an underwhelming success ....
For normal operations, the operator will impose a comfort margin above the demonstrated figures, if they, indeed, exist, or, if not, the operator will determine some suitable comfortable level for its operations.
Either way .... either the pilot (operator) is serious in operations or not ... if one nominates a height then the whole idea of standard operations and rational behaviour goes out the window if we are going to try a missed approach from a lower height just because something untoward occurs.
In the situation of a for real two engine out (727 was in the same situation with two out ... only a bit worse off) ... then one would have declared a VERY serious emergency situation and there ought not to be many likely scenarios which could have the pilot comtemplating a below decision height missed approach.
... back to square one .... in such circumstances the pilot has to make a D ... better to try and avoid the errant obstacle and still land in the general area of the intended touchdown under control .. rather than land upside (Vmca departure) or with wheels up (during missed approach reconfiguring) ...
Could I enquire of Lancer what circumstances he/she envisages that would be so dreadful as to cause the pilot to contemplate sticking his/her neck in such a well-knotted noose ?
Re Checkers' comments ... sure, we all have done the exercise on 3- or 4-motored aircraft ... but to contemplate doing so in anger from a silly height is not very intelligent ...
The hard deck decision height is what a rational flight test program determines for the conditions and is a bit like the H-V curves the helo guys get twitchy about ... serious stuff.... a missed approach from a lower level is most likely to be an underwhelming success ....
For normal operations, the operator will impose a comfort margin above the demonstrated figures, if they, indeed, exist, or, if not, the operator will determine some suitable comfortable level for its operations.
Either way .... either the pilot (operator) is serious in operations or not ... if one nominates a height then the whole idea of standard operations and rational behaviour goes out the window if we are going to try a missed approach from a lower height just because something untoward occurs.
In the situation of a for real two engine out (727 was in the same situation with two out ... only a bit worse off) ... then one would have declared a VERY serious emergency situation and there ought not to be many likely scenarios which could have the pilot comtemplating a below decision height missed approach.
... back to square one .... in such circumstances the pilot has to make a D ... better to try and avoid the errant obstacle and still land in the general area of the intended touchdown under control .. rather than land upside (Vmca departure) or with wheels up (during missed approach reconfiguring) ...
Could I enquire of Lancer what circumstances he/she envisages that would be so dreadful as to cause the pilot to contemplate sticking his/her neck in such a well-knotted noose ?
Re Checkers' comments ... sure, we all have done the exercise on 3- or 4-motored aircraft ... but to contemplate doing so in anger from a silly height is not very intelligent ...
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JT, one situation might involve an aircraft entering the runway about 1000 feet in when you're at about 150 feet... Of course, the situation is incredibly unlikely to occur, and there are a lot of 'what ifs', but some of the world's 'big' historical accidents were a result of the almost impossible eventuating and the crew dealing with it as best they can.
Regardless - you're right - it's not a noose you'd stick your neck in. Just thought I'd pose the question to see what people's ideas were!
Lancer
Regardless - you're right - it's not a noose you'd stick your neck in. Just thought I'd pose the question to see what people's ideas were!
Lancer
Moderator
... of course, that is always on our mind .... the reason why one ought to declare a very serious level of emergency and dictate to the ATC folk what one's requirements are ... like making sure that everyone knows that there will not be a missed approach. ... etc
.. clearly there is no percentage in driving into the idiot who lined up ... the choices are ... miss if above the sensible minimum (plus a bit for the new clearance consideration), fly over the bandit (very hazardous), or do a sidestep and land on the grass ... none are palatable ... the management trick is to do everything practicable pre-approach to avoid such problems eventuating ..
.. clearly there is no percentage in driving into the idiot who lined up ... the choices are ... miss if above the sensible minimum (plus a bit for the new clearance consideration), fly over the bandit (very hazardous), or do a sidestep and land on the grass ... none are palatable ... the management trick is to do everything practicable pre-approach to avoid such problems eventuating ..
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Hmm, well some of the "scenarios" presented here are only really interesting from the point of discussion....but if one absolutely had to, landing on any available parallel taxyway would certainly be an option...and certainly better that rolling inverted
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flaps or gear
Eng1170 hye,
no matter what kind of a/c you fly it is always flaps and postive climb gear up, not only ground contact a issue but drag at that stage for when the wheel door open on selecting g/u you get the max amount of drag so you wait till the a/c shows postive climb and select g/u.
so it is TOGA or max thrust, nose up,go around flap,postive clm g/u.
take care, bye
no matter what kind of a/c you fly it is always flaps and postive climb gear up, not only ground contact a issue but drag at that stage for when the wheel door open on selecting g/u you get the max amount of drag so you wait till the a/c shows postive climb and select g/u.
so it is TOGA or max thrust, nose up,go around flap,postive clm g/u.
take care, bye
A G/A in a 4 holer with 2 out on the same side requires the utmost care to ensure Vmca2 is achieved as quickly as possible.
As JT and others have said, I really think it could well be preferable to "land" on any bit of flat ground within the perimeter fence under control than fall out of the sky any old place out of control.
Commit height is just that.
In many cases a runway incursion is well survivable - how long is the tar, and how much do we REALLY need??
As JT and others have said, I really think it could well be preferable to "land" on any bit of flat ground within the perimeter fence under control than fall out of the sky any old place out of control.
Commit height is just that.
In many cases a runway incursion is well survivable - how long is the tar, and how much do we REALLY need??
