A320 Flaps / Slats locked (yes again !)

[sonicbum]

Hey guys,

I know it's a pretty recurrent question and there are numbers of threads on that matter but I had a doubt that I was trying to clear and couldn't find the answer. Can we state that in case of a flaps / slats locked the Vref increment given by the ECAM must match the increment on the QRH ? The ECAM already knows the landing Conf and therefore why should there be a discrepancy between the QRH and the ECAM other than a pilot confusion ? Another one since we are here A little bit of "philosophy" : as legally the ECAM suffices to handle any failure and it does not ask you to use the landing with slats and flaps jammed paper checklist, are we legally covered in case of omission of that checklist for any reason ?

Cheers.

[vilas]

As you know except VLS everything else displayed on PFD comes from flap lever. They are your good time friends. The moment there is a mismatch between lever and actual surface the displayed S, F, VFE and VFE next are incorrect and only mislead you. So we ignore and don't fly them by selecting speed. The new way of configuring is given in Landing with slat/flap procedure in QRH. If you do not refer to QRH then how would you configure? ECAM doesn't tell you that. QRH Vref addition sometimes is slightly different(should not be) in that case you can take the higher. Eventually you will be flying the displayed VLS as it is always correct.

[Elephant and Castle]

Without the QRH you cannot work out the landing distance required for the failure, you will miss the 500 feet minimum autopilot disconnect altitude and you will not know what config or speed to use in the case of Go Around. All pretty essential so not a good way to go.

[TyroPicard]

sonicbum
Two important lines from the FCTM on the subject...

• Refer to LANDING WITH FLAPS OR SLATS JAMMED paper check list.
• Update the approach briefing

So I think you would be foolish to ignore the QRH procedure, unless a greater emergency deprives you of the necessary time.

[sonicbum]

Thanks gents for your feedback.

Tyro as I specified initially we were just discussing the pure "legality" in that context, nobody is intending to omit any procedure unless as you said you have something extremely time consuming that you need to prioritise.

[Rocket3837]

Can U confirm you are referring to S/F locked or S/F jammed procedure?
In any case the speed increment displayed on ECAM is more correct than QRH. i.e. if there is a difference between the two speeds increments, apply ECAM spd increment.
On final approach, the VLS will represent the required spd + any increment due S/F failure.

[TyroPicard]

sonicbum

as legally the ECAM suffices to handle any failure

I disagree. Legally you are required to operate in accordance with your Ops Manual. ECAM is a tool to help you do that. It does not cover every failure.
And if you are not intending to omit the procedure why did you ask the question?

[vilas]

sonicbum
Forget the legality that will come after you landed. How will you configure to land without slat/flap jam procedure, unless you do the items from memory. ECAM does not advise you on additional necessary procedures like Overweight landing, straight in approach with OEI. Legally you need to remember and apply them.

[Gryphon]

I think there is a misunderstanding. From FCTM:

"When ECAM actions have been completed, and the ECAM status has been reviewed, the PNF may refer to the FCOM procedure for supplementary information, if time permits. However, in critical situations the flight should not be prolonged only to consult the FCOM."

But here we are talking only about expanded procedure in FCOM (very useful, if time permit)

But if you continue reading the FCTM:

"SOME ADDITIONAL REMARKS
• There are very few memory items
• OEB
• Some procedures require reference to the QRH"

ECAM/QRH/FCOM are tools and you have to use them accordingly

[sonicbum]

Tyro, it is an open discussion that started once the main points of the thread were discussed at the very beginning. Call it food for thoughts if you wish. Thanks for your feedbacks and opinions that I share myself.

[PENKO]

Where does it state that an Airbus has anything to do with the law?

(as in 'legally ECAM is enough in case of a failure')

ECAM does not tell me to inform the cabin crew, ATC, passengers, or the fire services of my emergency..

[sierra_mike]

ECAM does not tell me to inform the cabin crew, ATC, passengers, or the fire services of my emergency..

in certain procedures ECAM indeed tells you to notify ATC

but of course you are right, "ECAM actions complete" doesn't mean by far "we're done"

[Drifter72]

Hi,

Beside Vref increment message, ECAM Status page displays reminder to calculate performance, so you need to go to QRH.

During the training I noticed that pilots tend to wrongly interpret exact failure and consequently they calculate wrong performance from QRH tables. This is where ECAM Vref can be very handy. Comparing ECAM Vref with QRH Vref can be a quick confirmation that we are looking at the right failure for which we need to calculate landing distance.

I agree it is also not 100%, but at the end it is only a reminder that needs to be confirmed in QRH during performance calculation.

[Microburst2002]

I think the ECAM gives the landing configuration. Since VLS is the approach speed, you don't really need to go for any paper checklist if you are, for instance, in a fuel emergency and you are reasonably familiar with the procedure.

But if there is no hurry, you better get the checklist done.

[sonicbum]

Hi guys,

had another interesting SIM session where taking off with CONF 2 upon selecting flaps 1 we got a flaps locked. According to the ECAM the speed correction was Vref +10 as if the flaps where still in position 2 and the position on the ECAM indicated the same. We then had a discussion with the other colleagues about the fact that in order to trigger the WTB there must be even a slight movement of the flaps that will put you in a situation of flaps < 2, even by a very small undetected amount and therefore vref +15 (from the QRH).
I would appreciate your feedback on that matter.

Thanks.

[Amadis of Gaul]

Sonicbum, just to make sure I understand: you're sweating a 5kt difference? I can see how you might be concerned if the ECAM was saying +10 while the QRH was saying +30, but +10 vs +15 is (to me anyway) close enough for guvmint work, as we say in South-Central Oklahoma.

[vilas]

When the jam occurs you are not in appropriate landing configuration so Vls displayed is not Vapp. So you use ECAM/QRH to correct MCDU Vls but once you are appropriately configured the displayed Vls is correct and you can fly that.

[Gryphon]

had another interesting SIM session where taking off with CONF 2 upon selecting flaps 1 we got a flaps locked. According to the ECAM the speed correction was Vref +10 as if the flaps where still in position 2 and the position on the ECAM indicated the same. We then had a discussion with the other colleagues about the fact that in order to trigger the WTB there must be even a slight movement of the flaps that will put you in a situation of flaps < 2, even by a very small undetected amount and therefore vref +15 (from the QRH).

You cannot find any Vapp or Vapp correction in the QRH when in a slats/flaps fault situation (Abnormal proc or In Flt Perf).

Vref+10 or 15 is from an ECAM procedure (title white background) as read in the FCOM, and ECAM shows the correct increment according to the SFCC signal from IPPU.

It makes no sense to read an ECAM procedure for disregarding ECAM.

[Togue]

sonicbum,

where taking off with CONF 2 upon selecting flaps 1 we got a flaps locked

I understand that you took off in Conf 2 and after take off, when you selected flaps 1, you got the flaps locked message. What was the number under the slats/flaps icon? was it 2?

According to the ECAM the speed correction was Vref +10 as if the flaps where still in position 2 and the position on the ECAM indicated the same

As per QRH, for flaps jammed at 2, the correction for VREF is 10. For flaps 1 the correction is 15.

Gryphon,

You cannot find any Vapp or Vapp correction in the QRH when in a slats/flaps fault situation (Abnormal proc or In Flt Perf).

Have a look at QRH PER-27A.

[Gryphon]

Sorry, my mistake!

But still I think the ECAM receives the actual configuration from SFCC and it will display the right Vref correction.