Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

Improper stall/spin departure recovery technique

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

Improper stall/spin departure recovery technique

Old 12th Oct 2014, 12:43
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Down south
Age: 65
Posts: 265
Improper stall/spin departure recovery technique

Avion se sru?io i odmah eksplodirao: Snimka pogibije srpskoga poduzetnika Tomislava ?or?evi?a - Vijesti - Index.hr


Here a very good graphic illustration of typical wrong instinctive stall/spin recovery attempt, which leads to stall/spin LOC at low altitude with fatal results.

This is to show that proper recovery can only be attempted with proper training instilling proper control reactions which are counter intuitive and need to be drilled and practiced to give the necessary proficiency and skills to avoid or recover an unusual situation.


A/c seems to be an ultralight, though It applies to whatever A/C , the laws of physics unlike regulations cannot be
ignored or broken.

This is the typical LOC scenario, a chain reaction from flight at the back side of the power curve ( look at a/c instability );
Speed too low, nose high, no attempt to lower the nose, full power and lack of coordination, leading to a stall/spin right wing low departure with improper recovery technique aileron instead of rudder. ( Instinctive wrong reaction to counter right roll with left aileron input, look at right aileron deflected downwards at 0:29), exacerbating right wing drag and and AoA.


This is it, when will proper unusual attitudes issues be addressed properly with in inflight exercises with proper a/c and instructors and not in sim or in the classroom??
Should be absolutely mandatory
markkal is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2014, 20:30
  #2 (permalink)  

Aviator Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 73
Posts: 2,395
The problem is in this case was that they were too low to be able to recover no matter how good the pilot's spin recovery training was.

They were too low and too slow, which goes back to poor piloting training and/or lack of experience.

I watched the video quite a few time. At the 8 second point in the video he applies full right aileron coupled with what looks like full right rudder with what appears full up elevator, then the pilot unloads the aircraft at the 9 second point, still with full right rudder and aileron, then at the 10 second point, the pilot again applies full up elevator resulting in the aircraft going into an unrecoverable spin because of the low altitude.

From what saw on the video, it was a pilot induced spin. Now If it was accidental or not I don’t know. However, if the pilot had proper training, knew how to induce a spin and then recover, it would more of a case of suicide rather than an accident.

So in my opinion, the probable cause was an accidental spin due to poor pilot training and lack of experience. But before I would positively state that, I would need to know the pilot’s experience, total time in type, total time and training records.

A damn shame no matter how one looks at it.
con-pilot is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2014, 20:55
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 34
Posts: 382
So in my opinion, the probable cause was an accidental spin due to poor pilot training and lack of experience.
Agreed. The pilot was messing around with slow speed and uncoordinated flight and for some reason did that at very low altitude. Sad.

http://imgur.com/a/q9oYM#0

#1: Ailerons neutral, right rudder and up elevator - exactly how you enter a snap roll or spin.

#2: Rudder neutral, left aileron and slight up elevator.

#3: Rudder neutral, left aileron and more up elevator.

If at the first moment the pilot lost control they put the proper recovery inputs in I don't think they'd recover. Shouldn't have been flying like that down low.
italia458 is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2014, 04:28
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Kansas
Age: 34
Posts: 93
I cant help but notice the full flaps on what appears to be takeoff/ crosswind... the other control inputs didnt help but i think this may have been the first link in the chain. full flaps, slow climb, more elevator to climb, less speed, ailerons ineffective so more rudder applied, and the final on/off/on with the full up elevator seals the deal.
army_av8r is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2014, 04:41
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 704
If he was trying to demonstrate a stall, what happened to HASSELL checks?
VH-Cheer Up is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2014, 07:03
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hong Kong SAR
Age: 77
Posts: 292
One of my flying instructors told me when I was a solo pilot and before PPL that I was to "practice stall, spin, crash and burn - and you do this on your own."

(He was joking, I hasten to add.)
CISTRS is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2014, 08:14
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UTC +8
Posts: 2,626
Was he trying to avoid the power lines? The trick is to fly under if you can't climb over.
GlueBall is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2014, 14:07
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Nowhere near Shinbone Waterhole
Posts: 201
Doesn't matter why he spun in....its that
he had insufficient height above the hard
stuff to effect any sort of recovery - let
alone a safe one.

From what I saw on the vid he had large
right rudder, up elevator, and in a (what I
believe to be) climbing turn. All a perfect
set up for a spin entry.

Also I see there was no basic instinctive
opposite rudder from the incipient to the
impact - though it looks like he'd relaxed
the elevator. But probably he didn't have
time to even shit himself.

Reckon he overestimated the effect of
the slats.
mikedreamer787 is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2014, 23:22
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Heart
Posts: 812
I think avoiding the power lines was the a factor and full flaps didn't help either.

However, I think the pilot was trying to rudder round the turn, repeatedly applying right rudder and left aileron.
Notice how the aircraft nods politely at 0:09 before the final aft elevator input ends the game.

I was always taught minimum 30 degrees of bank. That way you have less temptation to rudder round the turn and you get a rate of descent which is cured by levelling the wings rather than a spin.
Miserlou is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2014, 07:22
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: A few degrees South
Posts: 810
Looks like suicide to me.
latetonite is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2014, 08:23
  #11 (permalink)  
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,581
So in my opinion, the probable cause was an accidental spin due to poor pilot training and lack of experience. But before I would positively state that, I would need to know the pilotís experience, total time in type, total time and training records.
- shall we add aircraft history/any maintenance/mechanical failure just in case?
BOAC is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2014, 21:24
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Village of Santo Poco
Posts: 794
The quality of the coffee the pilot had that morning is also a contributing factor.
Amadis of Gaul is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2014, 12:05
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London
Age: 50
Posts: 55
Seat slip?

Based on the attempt to climb and the full flap, and the gusty conditions I am going to throw my hat in with "failed go-around" maneuver.

Avoiding the lines shouldn't be an issue as you can hear other aircraft and the clip is obviously shot from an aerodrome.

It looks to me like possibly a seat which slid back... maybe a passenger was making the rudder inputs??
douglasheld is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2014, 12:53
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,420
Ailerons neutral, right rudder and up elevator - exactly how you enter a snap roll or spin.
Adam Wojda at Sleap taught his students, including me, to enter a deliberate spin in this way, starting just before the stall horn would go off, holding the controls in that position until the spin had fully developed, and then starting recovery. I always understood that the manoeuvre, which was quite violent, was the same as the first bit of a flick/snap roll.

I'm with Con-Pilot on the possible cause.

When young and foolish, I tried it one day (at 8,000 ft) with a 140HP Cherokee to see if it could be spun that way if no other, and very nearly died of fright in the resulting almost vertical, spiral dive at Vmax + God knows what, and pull-out. It says a lot for the Piper build quality that the aircraft stayed in one piece.
Capot is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.