''no Speed Restrictions''
Thread Starter
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From: w
''no Speed Restrictions''
Hello all!
once i took off from Los Angles international airport, the controller gave me a instruction: ''no speed restrictions" . at that time , we were about 2000ft. does that mean i don`t have to comply with the restriction of 250kts below 10000ft?
thanks!
once i took off from Los Angles international airport, the controller gave me a instruction: ''no speed restrictions" . at that time , we were about 2000ft. does that mean i don`t have to comply with the restriction of 250kts below 10000ft?
thanks!
Union Goon
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: New Jersey, USA
Depends, were you going east or west?
Once 12 miles off shore you are free to go speed of heat.
If you were going east over land he may have been deleting a sid speed restriction of something less than 250 below ten or a restriction to maintain 250 even above 10 ( I seam to recall one of the LAX sids had a maintain 250 till further notice)
The only place on the CONUS currently where you can excede 250 below 10 is Houston which has an ongoing trial of removing the speed restriction.
There maybe several reasons for the push to remove the speed restrictions, one of which is referred to as the "Dallas bump" which is that the rates of climb by some aircraft are so great at 250 knots they they are causing tcas RA's bumping the whole stack up. Also its pretty silly on departure and just costs fuel.
Cheers
Wino
Once 12 miles off shore you are free to go speed of heat.
If you were going east over land he may have been deleting a sid speed restriction of something less than 250 below ten or a restriction to maintain 250 even above 10 ( I seam to recall one of the LAX sids had a maintain 250 till further notice)
The only place on the CONUS currently where you can excede 250 below 10 is Houston which has an ongoing trial of removing the speed restriction.
There maybe several reasons for the push to remove the speed restrictions, one of which is referred to as the "Dallas bump" which is that the rates of climb by some aircraft are so great at 250 knots they they are causing tcas RA's bumping the whole stack up. Also its pretty silly on departure and just costs fuel.
Cheers
Wino
Joined: May 2000
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From: Seattle
In some places the 250-below-10 limit (or similar) is strictly enforced. Seoul comes to mind, with a 230-below-13 (or is it 220) limit in the terminal area on approach, and 250 on climbout. Without specific clearance to exceed the limit, we must use Flaps 1 on climbout at heavy weights (747-400) to comply.
still learning....
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From: USA
W777-
A couple of our pilots reported the same "clearance" out of LAX and DTW a few weeks ago. We researched it fully, and the controller has NO authority to waive the 250 knot restriction. As Wino says, IAH is the only airport in the US that allows it on departures.
If you're within 12 miles of the shoreline, the max speed is 250 below 10,000. (Unless your a/c requires higher.)
A couple of our pilots reported the same "clearance" out of LAX and DTW a few weeks ago. We researched it fully, and the controller has NO authority to waive the 250 knot restriction. As Wino says, IAH is the only airport in the US that allows it on departures.
If you're within 12 miles of the shoreline, the max speed is 250 below 10,000. (Unless your a/c requires higher.)
Joined: May 2002
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From: Who can say?
Agreed. "No ATC speed restriction" only removes the requirement to keep to SID or STAR speed limits. 250 below 10,000 is not at the controller's discretion and, except in cases as noted above, always applies.
Joined: May 2000
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From: Seattle
"Requires higher" may be a technically imperfect term (this is the "tech" log forum after all)... 
The 747-400 is "able" to maintain 250 at all weights at Flaps 1, but cannot do so at heavy weights with flaps up. We can legally accelerate to "clean" climb airspeed and retract the flaps below 10,000 feet under FAR 91.117(d) [and equivalent rules in other areas].
The 747-400 is "able" to maintain 250 at all weights at Flaps 1, but cannot do so at heavy weights with flaps up. We can legally accelerate to "clean" climb airspeed and retract the flaps below 10,000 feet under FAR 91.117(d) [and equivalent rules in other areas].
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Here in OZ, and no we're not as busy as most of you guys, if ATC gives you no speed restrictions below 10 000, that is exactly what it means, descent or climb. Happens pretty regularly in ML, that's for sure.
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From: England
Speaking from a UK background if the controller owns the airspace and grants you no speed restriction then you can do 320kts down finals if you want. OUTSIDE of controlled airspace 250<fl100 is mandatory.
WWW
WWW
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From: Pacific
In most countries ATC can allow speeds higher than posted, but in the US the 250 or minimum safe speed limit cannot be relaxed by ATC except as shown in Notams. It is a safety requirement based on the large number of light, VFR traffic.
LAX gives "High speed/Normal speed" because many pilots operating into there are not aware of FAR91.117 which allows speeds above 250 if required for safety of the flight (such as a heavy 747 on departure). They are sick of wasting time telling those pilots what they should already know, and so will issue a 'high speed' clearance to every airplane on departure, even if you don't ask. It does not mean unrestricted speed, you still have to comply with FAR91.117. Of course, it is not necessary to ask for min safe speed on departure, but those pilots trained in Europe and Asia will continue to do so, since they are not aware that rules are different in the US (an ICAO country, nevermind).
In SFO (and other places) you will be given a 250 speed restriction on the SID. This is for ATC speed control and in that case you will have to request a higher speed if you need it for minumum safe (flaps up).
I will take the opportunity to plead with you all who fly into LAX to keep the readbacks to a minimum. It is not Europe and the controller is not necessarily listening to you when you read back every item on the transmission recieved; he is often listening on two or more frequencies and is just waiting for you to shut up. The rest of us are waiting for a chance to get a word in. This is especially true on Ground freq. The ATIS tells us to only readback 'Hold Short' instructions. it would help a lot.
LAX gives "High speed/Normal speed" because many pilots operating into there are not aware of FAR91.117 which allows speeds above 250 if required for safety of the flight (such as a heavy 747 on departure). They are sick of wasting time telling those pilots what they should already know, and so will issue a 'high speed' clearance to every airplane on departure, even if you don't ask. It does not mean unrestricted speed, you still have to comply with FAR91.117. Of course, it is not necessary to ask for min safe speed on departure, but those pilots trained in Europe and Asia will continue to do so, since they are not aware that rules are different in the US (an ICAO country, nevermind).
In SFO (and other places) you will be given a 250 speed restriction on the SID. This is for ATC speed control and in that case you will have to request a higher speed if you need it for minumum safe (flaps up).
I will take the opportunity to plead with you all who fly into LAX to keep the readbacks to a minimum. It is not Europe and the controller is not necessarily listening to you when you read back every item on the transmission recieved; he is often listening on two or more frequencies and is just waiting for you to shut up. The rest of us are waiting for a chance to get a word in. This is especially true on Ground freq. The ATIS tells us to only readback 'Hold Short' instructions. it would help a lot.
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From: England
Yes - by saying the controller "owns" the airspace I meant Class A. Class D is merely controlled by him/her.
265kts on a SID is new to me.
WWW
265kts on a SID is new to me.
WWW
Last edited by Wee Weasley Welshman; 18th May 2002 at 17:29.
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From: Europe
WWW and BIK
You both need to re read the books
In UK Class A, B, and C (though we don't have any of the latter), there is NO LIMIT at any time, unless specified, for example on departure SIDs out of LHR or inbound STARs.
In Class D, ATC may authorise relaxation of the speed limit if they wish and can meet some conditions.
For all other classes, which includes Class E controlled airspace, there is a mandatory 250Kts below 10K restriction.
http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/aic/4Y291.PDF
You both need to re read the books
In UK Class A, B, and C (though we don't have any of the latter), there is NO LIMIT at any time, unless specified, for example on departure SIDs out of LHR or inbound STARs.
In Class D, ATC may authorise relaxation of the speed limit if they wish and can meet some conditions.
For all other classes, which includes Class E controlled airspace, there is a mandatory 250Kts below 10K restriction.
http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/aic/4Y291.PDF
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: surfing, watching for sharks
Boofhead
Amen on the readbacks at LAX. The frequency congestion is bad enough there without every transmission being repeated back, sometimes down to the altimeter
Amen on the readbacks at LAX. The frequency congestion is bad enough there without every transmission being repeated back, sometimes down to the altimeter
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Australia
All,
Which all goes to prove --- Ya gotta cotton to what youse is doing, where ever you are.
About the only thing that is standard is that so many countries do it "their way".
RE; US, the AIM has a very clear statement of the meaning of the phrase "No ATC speed restriction".
Re: US FAR 91.117(d) ONLY the pilot in command has the legal authority to determine what "minimum safe speed" is, there is no "right answer", it is the responsibility of the Pilot in Command and nobody else. See also FAR 91.3.
For what it's worth, in a -400 heavy, I will not operate with flap out for one minute longer than necessary to clean up, on the basis of the O negative G limit, with any flap extended, alone. I can't forecast smooth air, can you.
Tootle pip !!
Which all goes to prove --- Ya gotta cotton to what youse is doing, where ever you are.
About the only thing that is standard is that so many countries do it "their way".
RE; US, the AIM has a very clear statement of the meaning of the phrase "No ATC speed restriction".
Re: US FAR 91.117(d) ONLY the pilot in command has the legal authority to determine what "minimum safe speed" is, there is no "right answer", it is the responsibility of the Pilot in Command and nobody else. See also FAR 91.3.
For what it's worth, in a -400 heavy, I will not operate with flap out for one minute longer than necessary to clean up, on the basis of the O negative G limit, with any flap extended, alone. I can't forecast smooth air, can you.
Tootle pip !!
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: London UK
"Amen on the readbacks at LAX. The frequency congestion is bad enough there without every transmission being repeated back, sometimes down to the altimeter"
"I will take the opportunity to plead with you all who fly into LAX to keep the readbacks to a minimum. It is not Europe and the controller is not necessarily listening to you when you read back every item on the transmission recieved; he is often listening on two or more frequencies and is just waiting for you to shut up. "
I've never operated into LAX - but isn't reading back a clearance a vital part of flight safety? You must get a lot of level busts / near misses etc. Perhaps you should get some more frequencies to ease the congestion! I understand why so many US pilots sound so gash in Europe now!
"I will take the opportunity to plead with you all who fly into LAX to keep the readbacks to a minimum. It is not Europe and the controller is not necessarily listening to you when you read back every item on the transmission recieved; he is often listening on two or more frequencies and is just waiting for you to shut up. "
I've never operated into LAX - but isn't reading back a clearance a vital part of flight safety? You must get a lot of level busts / near misses etc. Perhaps you should get some more frequencies to ease the congestion! I understand why so many US pilots sound so gash in Europe now!
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From: surfing, watching for sharks
I am not really sure what sounding gash means, but I can imagine.
I listen to European carriers repeat back clearances verbatim. Hit the highlights and important stuff only. One small example is the altimeter. Repeat the numbers only, not the word also. Multiply that and others out and it gives you alot of frequency congestion with no additional level of safety achieved.
I listen to European carriers repeat back clearances verbatim. Hit the highlights and important stuff only. One small example is the altimeter. Repeat the numbers only, not the word also. Multiply that and others out and it gives you alot of frequency congestion with no additional level of safety achieved.
Last edited by West Coast; 27th May 2002 at 05:39.
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From: UK
This topic of speed restrictions appears to have devoloped into a look at R/T standards, which I think is worth comparing around the world. Speaking as a "Brit" I like the way our American friend group numbers together, I find it easier to remember, readback and takes a little less valuable airtime. Also there are so many stepped on transmissions nowadays that equipment like "Contran" that stops you doing so should be invested in by the airlines and ATC.