LTAI Missed approach procedure
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FlightPathOBN
I think you are mistaking MAP with MDA. Missed approach has vertical and lateral part.You can execute missed approach at any altitude and you do not have to go to MDA but you have to go to MAP before you follow lateral part of missed approach procedure. If you cannot resume immediate climb the procedure will be meaningless. In this perticular procedure vertically you resume climb but laterally you have to go to the VOR and establish on the radial and only at 5DME and not before you turn left. The only altitude restriction is 2700 ft. If you are not 1250 ft at 5 DME then turn when passing 1250ft.
I think you are mistaking MAP with MDA. Missed approach has vertical and lateral part.You can execute missed approach at any altitude and you do not have to go to MDA but you have to go to MAP before you follow lateral part of missed approach procedure. If you cannot resume immediate climb the procedure will be meaningless. In this perticular procedure vertically you resume climb but laterally you have to go to the VOR and establish on the radial and only at 5DME and not before you turn left. The only altitude restriction is 2700 ft. If you are not 1250 ft at 5 DME then turn when passing 1250ft.
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The LIDO description reads: direct AYT, R350 AYT, at 1250ft or D5 AYT, whichever is later, left turn to AYT - TOPUZ climb 2700'. Seems somewhat more clear to me.
Last edited by Denti; 12th Jun 2013 at 07:57.
The LIDO description reads: direct AYT, R350 AYT, at 1250ft or D5 AYT, whichever is later, left turn to AYT
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That means (for example with an engine out and not able to make 1250ft by 5 DME), you'd keep going on the 330°R until you got to 1250ft.
Denti's post amplifies what I already said few posts before.
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Capn Bloggs...
1250' is only 1100' above the runway elevation... or even 900' above the DA. Most jets at MLW rather than MTOW would be able to do that! (7nm to climb 900'...)
In the event of having an engine out and being unable to clear terrain using the published missed approach then I would expect your ops department to either publish an engine out missed approach procedure OR restrict the weight that you can land on this runway at.
1250' is only 1100' above the runway elevation... or even 900' above the DA. Most jets at MLW rather than MTOW would be able to do that! (7nm to climb 900'...)
In the event of having an engine out and being unable to clear terrain using the published missed approach then I would expect your ops department to either publish an engine out missed approach procedure OR restrict the weight that you can land on this runway at.
That's correct, that's what you're supposed to do.
Cough, fair enough. 1250ft looks to be about 2.5% at 5 DME.
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Interesting - the latest (7/3/2013) IAP for LTAI now has two ILS 36C, one (ILS/DME 2 36C) based on the AYT VOR has a g/a hold at TOPUZ at 2700' via the AYT with the same g/a wording as Mashuk's plate, while ILS 36C (based on the YT) has a different g/a (obviously no DME for the turn) via 2000' to a hold at the YT at 3. I think the AIP chart for this is mis-printed since it calls for a track on the YT 330 but is apparently drawn on the ILS LOC IAYT, and it certainly could be a bit of a scramble to get onto the YT 330!
I cannot see why, if no block at 1250' is required, the g/a does not say something like
"Climb to 2700' on the 330 AYT. At 5D AYT turn left etc...."?
As Cough says, if you cannot make 1250' in 7 miles you have other significant problems
I cannot see why, if no block at 1250' is required, the g/a does not say something like
"Climb to 2700' on the 330 AYT. At 5D AYT turn left etc...."?
As Cough says, if you cannot make 1250' in 7 miles you have other significant problems
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Originally Posted by JeroenC
This is typical Jeppesen wording for that,
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It's a continuous climb - the reason for the 'do not turn before' is because if you turn at 1250 with two engines operative you'll probably end up joining the VOR much further south of the intended position. Denti's wording is spot on.
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I have no idea how to set 1250 on the MCP
so I would climb to 2700 and turn at 5 DME.
If you are not sure,and worried about the traffic joining from the north at 3000 ft ,request clarification from ATC.
If you are too proud to ask over the radio,just go and see them,free coffee I reckon.
I was just looking at Kanak 2 A departure, 10-3M, and was wondering how the designers expect pilots to join a radial 160 deg off the apparent inbound track...
so I would climb to 2700 and turn at 5 DME.If you are not sure,and worried about the traffic joining from the north at 3000 ft ,request clarification from ATC.
If you are too proud to ask over the radio,just go and see them,free coffee I reckon.
I was just looking at Kanak 2 A departure, 10-3M, and was wondering how the designers expect pilots to join a radial 160 deg off the apparent inbound track...
Last edited by de facto; 12th Jun 2013 at 11:45.
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Originally Posted by df
I would set a missed approach of 1300 ft as the arrivals from the North eventhough feeding the VOR from different radials than the missed approach(R330),traffic may be overhead the VOR at 3000 ft,climbing to 2700 ft could be interesting....
EDIT: I see you have now deleted that part of your post?
Last edited by BOAC; 12th Jun 2013 at 11:35.
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. Do you think my point is valid though?"I was just looking at Kanak 2 A departure, 10-3M, and was wondering how the designers expect pilots to join a radial 160 deg off the apparent inbound track... " - I reckon 6g would crack it......
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Yes valid point once at 2700 ft in the holding area,being 300ft below another traffic could be an interesting sight and in that particular case id rather be on top
Reedited again..
(rose wine....)
Reedited again..
(rose wine....)
Last edited by de facto; 12th Jun 2013 at 12:37.
I don't think the wording is incredibly strange:
Climb on R-330 AYT to 1250'
means stay on the AYT 330 radial until getting to at least 1250' and
then turn LEFT (not before D5.0 AYT) climbing to 2700' proceed to VOR then TOPUZ and hold.
means don't start the left turn until 5D AYT and climb to 2700'.
There are two qualifiers for the left turn: above 1250' AND beyond 5D. 2700' is the "block" altitude as it specifies: climbing to 2700'
I've had a look at some non-Jepp charts and they have 1250' as a condition, not a stop height. Also, you've got to inject some common sense - would *you* level off at 1250' and head into the hills if you were doing this for real...?
Climb on R-330 AYT to 1250'
means stay on the AYT 330 radial until getting to at least 1250' and
then turn LEFT (not before D5.0 AYT) climbing to 2700' proceed to VOR then TOPUZ and hold.
means don't start the left turn until 5D AYT and climb to 2700'.
There are two qualifiers for the left turn: above 1250' AND beyond 5D. 2700' is the "block" altitude as it specifies: climbing to 2700'
I've had a look at some non-Jepp charts and they have 1250' as a condition, not a stop height. Also, you've got to inject some common sense - would *you* level off at 1250' and head into the hills if you were doing this for real...?
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You did notice that there are two holds, depending on which ILS you fly, and compare them to the missed for 36R. Someone talk to ATC at LTAI, and I am still convinced the altitude restriction....and it is clearly a restriction, is due to the parallel approaches in use.
It is a good discussion though. Letīs break for coffee.....
It is a good discussion though. Letīs break for coffee.....