CAT3a minima at CYYZ

[GAXNIZ]

Hello
I'm a EVA pilot I have a question about CAT3a at CYYZ
The ILS rwy05 catii or iii(11-1a) chart shows that
Cat 3a is no decision height and RVR6

But if go to CYYZ 10-9s to check the minima for rwy05 cat3a is RA50 and RVR7

Why there are difference and which should I follow?


Thank you

[Glonass]

I don't have access to 10-9S for CYYZ. Perhaps a company chart?

Anyway, on chart 11-1A you have a CAT IIIA (Fail Operational) approach with a a RVR 6 as you stated. Chart 10-9S perhaps depicts specific company requirements where as you have the CAT IIIA - Fail Passive minima of RA50. As for the RVR 7, then again it is perhaps a company decision to increased in order to be conservative.

As I see it, you should refer to the RVR 6 requirement if operating Fail Operational. You should apply a minima of RA 50 - RVR 7 when operating Fail Passive .

A flight control system is fail-operational if, in the event of a failure below alert height (AH), the approach, flare and landing, can be completed automatically. In the event of a failure, the automatic
landing system will operate as a fail-passive system.

A flight control system is fail-passive if, in the event of a failure, there is no significant out-of-trim condition or deviation of flight path or attitude but the landing is not completed automatically. For a fail-passive automatic flight control system the pilot assumes control of the aeroplane after a failure.

I hope it helps somehow.

[aterpster]

RA50 is an Alert Height. Fail operational CAT III does not have a DA.

[Glonass]

aterpster,

With all do respect,

RA is a Radio Altimeter height, associated with CAT II approaches. For a CAT III the DH acronym is used, although it is a Radio Altimeter reading as well.

As for the Alert Height (AH) it is defined as:
An Alert Height is a height above the runway, based on the characteristics of the aeroplane and its fail-operational automatic landing system, above which a Category III approach would be discontinued and a missed approach initiated if a failure occurred in one of the redundant parts of the automatic landing system, or in the relevant ground equipment (ICAO).
In other AH definitions, it is generally stated that if a failure occurred below the Alert Height, it would be ignored and the approach continued. (TP 1490)
The Alert Height will be set between 100' and 300' (if I remember well)

As for Category III A operations: a precision instrument approach and landing using ILS or MLS with:
(A) a decision height lower than 100 ft; and
(B) a runway visual range not less than 200 m

You are correct in stating that CAT III does not have have a DA. CAT III has a DH (lower than 100')

Although I agree that it is common to find CAT III approaches with no published DH, there are a a few airports that have CAT III with a DH. Oslo (ENGM) comes to mind.

Cheers

[aterpster]

Glonass,

You're right on all counts. But, I believe you get what I was trying to say without looking at the chart.

[JammedStab]

Check your company manuals or maybe Fleet Notices to see if you are operating under EU-OPS 1 minima. Or ask an Instructor Pilot. You probably are as you have the 10-9S chart in your manual while many others do not as you can see by one of the responses.

If so, then you should check your Jeppesen 10-9S chart(or 20-9S or 60-9S chart such as in Dallas) and compare those minimums with the minimums on the actual approach plate. If they are higher, then you use the higher minimums.

Go to page 94 of this link for an explanation.

http://ww1.jeppesen.com/documents/av...ry-legends.pdf

It says "APPROACH CHART LEGEND — EU-OPS 1 AERODROME OPERATING MINIMUMS (AOM)
Publication of minimums does not constitute authority for their use by all operators. Each individual operator must obtain appropriate approval for their use.

Beginning in November 2008 Jeppesen will replace the current JAR-OPS 1 minimums with the new minimums introduced by the 2nd amendment to
EU-OPS 1. The “Standard” label in the upper left corner of the minimums box indicates that the minimums are based on EU-OPS 1 (Subpart E - Appendix 1 new to OPS 1.430). The “JAR-OPS” label in the upper left corner
of the minimums box indicates that the minimums are based on JAR-OPS 1 or EU-OPS 1 (Subpart E - Appendix 1 old to OPS 1.430). For a detailed excerpt of EU-OPS 1 minimums refer to Air Traffic Control
(ATC) Series 600 pages."

Not easy reading and difficult to understand. The bottom line is this: If your company is required to follow Standard Minimums, check your regular approach chart and aerodrome charts for an inverse printed “Standard” label(small white letters on a black background near the minima box) indicating that the minimums are established according the new European Standard which are the minimums for you to follow. If you don't have that inversely printed standard on the approach plate, then go to the associated -9S page and look at the minimums for your approach(as long as it is not below your company approved minima for that country). At some airports the minima are all the same while at others there are many differences which are usually higher.

If you find that there is no inverse standard on the approach plate and there is no -9S chart in your paper binder, check the Jeppesen website and look for the -9S chart there(you can check your IPAD if you have one).

Remember that Jeppesen does not add 50' to any Continuous Descent Final Approach minima if you are doing that. So you have to.

[JammedStab]

Originally Posted by aterpster

RA50 is an Alert Height. Fail operational CAT III does not have a DA.

This is not completely correct although it may be mostly correct.

Here is part of the FAA/JAA definition for CAT IIIB which is fail-operational. "A category III B approach is a precision approach and landing with no decision height or a decision height lower than 50ft (15m)...."

In other words, sometimes there is a decision height. For example, I have seen in our company limitation for Paris, a DH of 14 feet. Pretty low.

I suspect that the original poster is flying a 777 and the Alert Height is more likely around 200 feet. The 50 RA on the 10-9S chart for YYZ is the new minimum according the new revised rules of the bureaucrats in the EU for operators following their rules. What is the reason? Maybe it has something to do with lighting but I don't know.

Mind you, the original question was about a CAT IIIA approach. Perhaps his normal company minimums based on that particular country's approval for this Fail-Passive approach is 50 RA anyways(unless stated as higher in the Jepps). It is at my company.

[Glonass]

Jammedstab,

Thank you for the clarification. The use of chart 10-9S is indeed explained in Jeppesen's Briefing Bulletins. I had never paid close attention to it

[GAXNIZ]

Thank you for answer my question.
I checked the 11-1A, there is no inverse printed "STANDER" on the left top minima box. I also checked the "LFPG" (De-Gaulle) there are a inverse printed "STANDER", also I do not see -9S for the minima table at this airport.

May I ask CYYZ 11-1A the CATIIIA minima RVR 7, what is that for? For other companies used? or just do not completed the chart's minima change?

Again, thank you for answer

[JammedStab]

Difficult to understand your question. People using 10-9S chart need 700 rvr minimum to fly the approach. That is 700 feet by the way.