Circle to land minimas
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BOAC:
Current FAA policy is to not publish CTL minima on an approach with vertical guidance and only a DA. I would like to see "with precision minimums only" because that has more clarity, but LPV does not yet have the ICAO stamp of approval to be classified as precision.
So why is there no CM for the 19 plate? 8240 would not seem unreasonable.
Actually the strange thing here is that there is NOT an LNAV line of minima on the 19 procedure? Then the Captain could have his opposite direction circling mins...which might even be higher like KMRY.
Have you ever seen any other RNAV (GPS) with only an LPV line of minima?
Have you ever seen any other RNAV (GPS) with only an LPV line of minima?
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I had to fly one other rotation with this dude, you would'nt believe what he did to me today... I think the think the CP wont like what i'll have to say.
BOAC, we're using Jepp.
With the Yellowstone example, i would'nt try a RWY 19 approach circle to land 01 as it doesn't seem to be an option looking at the plate.
GF, he'll tell me that he'd rejoin the initial MA procedure, we already talked about it.
Aterpster, BOAC got a point. Thanks for giving examples though, we got a good discussion going on .
BOAC, we're using Jepp.
With the Yellowstone example, i would'nt try a RWY 19 approach circle to land 01 as it doesn't seem to be an option looking at the plate.
GF, he'll tell me that he'd rejoin the initial MA procedure, we already talked about it.
Aterpster, BOAC got a point. Thanks for giving examples though, we got a good discussion going on .
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Circle to land minimums are on the approach plate you are using. Sometimes it says which way you have to circle but that is all you care about. Do not ever look at other approach charts, use the approach you are doing because it is all there. Keep it simple because that is why you only need one approach chart.
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I would'nt try a RWY 19 approach circle to land 01
I'm not familiar with that field, but looking at the terrain I think circling off the 19 approach could lead to a world of pain.
There's probably a good reason a circling approach isn't published, and the trainer of the OP needs to think very carefully before going off piste.
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Thanks Valmont - I have never seen that 'comment' on a Jepp plate. Can you tell me which which approach please?
What is this issue with circling off 19? If there were minima published (and it would probably be 8240 - but missing as Aterp explained) there should be no 'terrain' issue at all. This shows a basic misunderstanding of what a circling area is.
Aterp - how far away is recognition of LPV in ICAO? As OK says, why no LNAV for 19? Mind you, we may not have seen all the plates?
What is this issue with circling off 19? If there were minima published (and it would probably be 8240 - but missing as Aterp explained) there should be no 'terrain' issue at all. This shows a basic misunderstanding of what a circling area is.
Aterp - how far away is recognition of LPV in ICAO? As OK says, why no LNAV for 19? Mind you, we may not have seen all the plates?
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BOAC:
There is no issue with publishing CTL on the LPV 19. The issue is FAA policy. They used to publish CTL on an IAP with precision-only minimums, or Decision Altitude only, if you will. They changed the policy some three or four years ago. There apparently is an obstacle or obstacles that interfere with a 3-degree gradient LNAV path and a 3-degree VNAV path. LPV uses far different containment areas; basically ILS criteria with their "troughs."
No idea about ICAO on this.
As to LNAV it may have worked with a steeper descent gradient but that would require a second IAP (Y and Z), which the FAA presumably didn't want to do at this location. Or some obstacle to the left or right of the ILS/LPV lateral areas caused LNAV too steep to meet criteria. Can't tell without the FAA work records.
What is this issue with circling off 19? If there were minima published (and it would probably be 8240 - but missing as Aterp explained) there should be no 'terrain' issue at all. This shows a basic misunderstanding of what a circling area is.
How far away is recognition of LPV in ICAO? As OK says, why no LNAV for 19? Mind you, we may not have seen all the plates?
As to LNAV it may have worked with a steeper descent gradient but that would require a second IAP (Y and Z), which the FAA presumably didn't want to do at this location. Or some obstacle to the left or right of the ILS/LPV lateral areas caused LNAV too steep to meet criteria. Can't tell without the FAA work records.
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Originally Posted by aterp
There is no issue with publishing CTL on the LPV 19
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Legitime autority of the Captain still exists
Originally Posted by RAT 5 #13
I wouldn't crucify the guy though, even if he's a training CA. He IS human right...?
What's the difference between God & a Training Captain? God doesn't think he's a training captain.
In flight you have to obey to the Captain
Ouch! What happened to CRM, advocacy and CREW concept? I hope your tongue was firmly in your cheek.
"we're about the crash captain." "No we're not; keep going." "We're about to crash captain." "No we're not; keep.........oh f@ £k. Wrong again."
Was it not a DC-10 crashing in MAD where the last words from the Captain when he cancelled the GPWS were, "shut up gringo."
What's the difference between God & a Training Captain? God doesn't think he's a training captain.
In flight you have to obey to the Captain
Ouch! What happened to CRM, advocacy and CREW concept? I hope your tongue was firmly in your cheek.
"we're about the crash captain." "No we're not; keep going." "We're about to crash captain." "No we're not; keep.........oh f@ £k. Wrong again."
Was it not a DC-10 crashing in MAD where the last words from the Captain when he cancelled the GPWS were, "shut up gringo."
OPS 1.090 Autorité du commandant de bord
L'exploitant prend toutes les mesures raisonnables nécessaires afin de s'assurer que toutes les personnes transportées à bord de l'avion obéissent à tous les ordres licites
donnés par lecommandant de bord dans le but d'assurer la sécurité de l'avion et des personnes ou des biens qui s'y trouvent.
L'exploitant prend toutes les mesures raisonnables nécessaires afin de s'assurer que toutes les personnes transportées à bord de l'avion obéissent à tous les ordres licites
donnés par lecommandant de bord dans le but d'assurer la sécurité de l'avion et des personnes ou des biens qui s'y trouvent.
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BOAC:
Under FAR 97, no one can circle to land off the LPV 19 IAP. The can request clearance from ATC for a contact approach if their ops specs permit contact approaches, or they can request a visual approach if the weather conditions are sufficient for a visual approach. In either case the pilot would assume sole responsibility for terrain clearance. Or, if the weather is sufficient, they can cancel IFR and do whatever they feel is safe to land on other than Runway 19.
- we have moved on from that - you explained why earlier. The issue is about flying a CTL off 19 - see posts #26 and #28 where I assume posters are concerned about the 'terrain' which indicates a possible lack of understanding of the principle behind CTL areas under both TERPS and PANSOPS.
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OT...from that plate, circle to land CAT D into WYS !?!?
With RNP procedures, I have never put circling on a plate, anywhere in the world...
With RNP procedures, I have never put circling on a plate, anywhere in the world...
Last edited by FlightPathOBN; 12th May 2013 at 16:27.
To further muddy the water.....
Here's an example of a runway (KRIL 26) with separate plates for an LNAV procedure (with CTL) and the separate WAAS LPV. Of note, the descent gradient for the LPV (3.60) is steeper than the gradient for the LNAV (3.58).
No one size fits all in them thar hills....
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1305/06741RW26.PDF
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1305/06741RX26.PDF
(Once again, the LPV to WYS 19 is the ONLY IAP to 19, no LNAV. I think this is probably somewhat unique to find a runway ONLY served by an LPV line of minima, nothing else. I'm also wondering then why 19 couldn't be served with an LP line of minima with CTL which might have to be higher than 8240 as a result of the LP approach mins possibly being higher than 8240 on that end?...once again creating a problem for said Captain)
As to LNAV it may have worked with a steeper descent gradient but that would require a second IAP (Y and Z), which the FAA presumably didn't want to do at this location. Or some obstacle to the left or right of the ILS/LPV lateral areas caused LNAV too steep to meet criteria.
No one size fits all in them thar hills....
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1305/06741RW26.PDF
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1305/06741RX26.PDF
(Once again, the LPV to WYS 19 is the ONLY IAP to 19, no LNAV. I think this is probably somewhat unique to find a runway ONLY served by an LPV line of minima, nothing else. I'm also wondering then why 19 couldn't be served with an LP line of minima with CTL which might have to be higher than 8240 as a result of the LP approach mins possibly being higher than 8240 on that end?...once again creating a problem for said Captain)
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No need to overcomplicate things …ILS 06 Circle 24 …. Use the circling minima on ILS 06 plate and incase of missed approach turn shortest distance towards the missed approach for the instrument landing runway…in this case ILS 06 missed approach.
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BOAC:
Who are you addressing?
I take it you have not read #26 and #28. I'll say again - we understand " no one can circle to land off the LPV 19 IAP"...........