AF 447 Thread No. 11
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Wengen
Age: 52
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
J'accuse: Accusé BEA, Levez-Vous!
Without the original and complete DCVR, we'll not be able to fully explain this crash.
Fragmented information relayed by the BEA isn't grounded on any evidence.
In this situation it's difficult to estimate to what extent the provided details agree with the facts, especially that the BEA rejects certain hypotheses without giving reasons such as on Bonin's licence which it backtracked in its 3rd intermediate report as opposed to the 1st interemediate report.
How does it explain its change of heart?
Now, the Judicial Expert's report provides more DCVR but too many pieces are missing from the puzzle.
New ECAM Warnings:
BEA FAULT
BEA REPORT 1 + BEA REPORT 3 DISAGREE
Fragmented information relayed by the BEA isn't grounded on any evidence.
In this situation it's difficult to estimate to what extent the provided details agree with the facts, especially that the BEA rejects certain hypotheses without giving reasons such as on Bonin's licence which it backtracked in its 3rd intermediate report as opposed to the 1st interemediate report.
How does it explain its change of heart?
Now, the Judicial Expert's report provides more DCVR but too many pieces are missing from the puzzle.
New ECAM Warnings:
BEA FAULT
BEA REPORT 1 + BEA REPORT 3 DISAGREE
Last edited by Winnerhofer; 28th Nov 2013 at 16:52.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 81
Posts: 1,461
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Winnerhofer
What law firm are you associated with?
Alternately, are you just one of those guys who likes to stir things up?
I was not enlightened as to the intent of your post 948 which appears to be additional irrelevant cockpit communication that the court has released. Just the kind of thing that BEA is supposed to remove from their report.
What law firm are you associated with?
Alternately, are you just one of those guys who likes to stir things up?
I was not enlightened as to the intent of your post 948 which appears to be additional irrelevant cockpit communication that the court has released. Just the kind of thing that BEA is supposed to remove from their report.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 81
Posts: 1,461
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the Norwegian B737 near stall event this telling morsel:
Too bad the A brand hasn't seen the value of this concept.
In the case of AF447, it is pretty evident that the crew was so stressed that they had turned their ears off.
Maybe the C chord tone is too overpowering when combined with other problems? Haven't flown it, so I have no idea.
It's a pretty concerning incident. The sound of the trim wheel continuously running has been drummed into my head from Day 1 in the sim as a major cue that "something is not right"
In the case of AF447, it is pretty evident that the crew was so stressed that they had turned their ears off.
Maybe the C chord tone is too overpowering when combined with other problems? Haven't flown it, so I have no idea.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brand A do see the value of the concept, as there is an audible "bell" warning when the trim wheel is moving on the A300/A310 types - i.e. those with a conventional approach to trim.
Approach to trim use is somewhat different on the FBW types, in the sense that the automatic trim will be operating more often than would be the case traditionally, and a mechanical aural alert every time the trim wheel moves could be an annoyance or distraction. That said, an aural alert when trim exceeds a certain value could be a useful addition.
Is it that specific? We've got plenty of examples where a stressful situation has caused crews to disregard aural, visual and tactile warnings.
In our sim experiments, the C-chord was certainly no more intrusive than STALLSTALL, but they were both certainly attention-grabbers!
Approach to trim use is somewhat different on the FBW types, in the sense that the automatic trim will be operating more often than would be the case traditionally, and a mechanical aural alert every time the trim wheel moves could be an annoyance or distraction. That said, an aural alert when trim exceeds a certain value could be a useful addition.
In the case of AF447, it is pretty evident that the crew was so stressed that they had turned their ears off.
Maybe the C chord tone is too overpowering when combined with other problems? Haven't flown it, so I have no idea.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BEA fails to mention if these guys were ETOPS-rated.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Wengen
Age: 52
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ETOPS
Implies indeed and therin lies the nastiest of rubs.
It's a seperate rating with a specific exam ipso facto of A330 rating which is line-checked.
The TSB published the ratings of the SR111 crew with a specific reference to their respective ETOPS ratings.
The BEA hasn't come out with theirs yet....
It's a seperate rating with a specific exam ipso facto of A330 rating which is line-checked.
The TSB published the ratings of the SR111 crew with a specific reference to their respective ETOPS ratings.
The BEA hasn't come out with theirs yet....
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Moderator
Thread Starter
Folks,
I've deleted some commentary in the last page.
Robust discussion is fine and that includes criticism.
However, savage criticism not backed up by objective, public domain citation is not fair play and will be removed.
I've deleted some commentary in the last page.
Robust discussion is fine and that includes criticism.
However, savage criticism not backed up by objective, public domain citation is not fair play and will be removed.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 81
Posts: 1,461
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Movement perfectly visible .. if you check it !
Not so good when there are interesting things going on in front of you.
If you think about it, trim should only move as you accelerate/decelerate or change configuration.
You do not want it to make a run into one of the stops unknown and unseen.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 81
Posts: 1,461
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Human Factors
Originally Posted by Dozy
In our sim experiments, the C-chord was certainly no more intrusive than STALLSTALL, but they were both certainly attention-grabbers!
Instead of: STALL STALL STALL STALL STALL STALL with crickets interspersed
perhaps
STALL STALL STALL STALL STALL STALL STALL STALL STALL ..... with crickets
would be a better choice.
Maybe the warnings should be prioritized also. The C chord altitude alert should be a lower priority than the Stall warning.
After all, you can't fix the altitude until the aircraft is under control.
Last edited by Machinbird; 29th Nov 2013 at 22:38. Reason: To fix a formating problem
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Wengen
Age: 52
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Background
David ROBERT a réalisé au cours de ce stage le ler juillet 2007, un exercice STALL WARNING mais A l'issue de ce contrôle noté satisfaisant, son niveau professionnel ayant été jugé perfectible, David ROBERT a été convoqué à un entretien technique.
Robert underwent his STALL WARNING training but although he made it through his check, his professionalism was deemed to be improvable and was summoned for a technical interview.
Marc Dubois n'a jamais fait de stage spécifique " Commandant de Bord " ni chez Air Inter ni chez Air France
Chez Air Inter, il n'a été que co-pilote y compris sur A320.
Il est allé ensuite chez la Postale sur 737/200 et n'a été nommé CDB A320 chez AF que 29 mai 2001
Tous les CDB IT et/ou AF ont fait des stages spécifiques Commandant de Bord, indépendants de la qualif de l'avion sur lequel on va être qualifié en tant que tel.
Marc Dubois never underwent CDB (Commandant de Bord) training.
All AF & IT CDB regardless of their ratings had to undergo the CDB training.
Robert underwent his STALL WARNING training but although he made it through his check, his professionalism was deemed to be improvable and was summoned for a technical interview.
Marc Dubois n'a jamais fait de stage spécifique " Commandant de Bord " ni chez Air Inter ni chez Air France
Chez Air Inter, il n'a été que co-pilote y compris sur A320.
Il est allé ensuite chez la Postale sur 737/200 et n'a été nommé CDB A320 chez AF que 29 mai 2001
Tous les CDB IT et/ou AF ont fait des stages spécifiques Commandant de Bord, indépendants de la qualif de l'avion sur lequel on va être qualifié en tant que tel.
Marc Dubois never underwent CDB (Commandant de Bord) training.
All AF & IT CDB regardless of their ratings had to undergo the CDB training.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: France - mostly
Age: 83
Posts: 1,688
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Machinbird,
THe stall warning consists of a “STALL, STALL” aural warning, followed
by a characteristic cricket sound and the illumination of the Master Warning light. It has priority over the C-chord warning, so the C-chord is interrupted when the stall warning is active.
THe stall warning consists of a “STALL, STALL” aural warning, followed
by a characteristic cricket sound and the illumination of the Master Warning light. It has priority over the C-chord warning, so the C-chord is interrupted when the stall warning is active.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Correr es mi destino por no llevar papel
Posts: 1,435
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Once again, PPRuNe helps me understand why even DECs nowadays have to hop through "Reading comprehension" HR hoops.
Sorry; I stand corrected. Presumption was based on obvious signs you had no clue about it.
No.
No.
That talk about "oh-so-sensitive-controls-that-eat-inexperienced-pilots-for-breakfast-when-they-try-to-handfly-at-altitude" is total bollocks. If you haven't read and understood HTBJ, well there is TAM crew that has proven you can throw altn lawed A330 around and not even hurt anyone. Their actions were massively wrong but absolutely not fatal! AF447 was not downed by manual ineptitude but by sustained pitch-up input! CM2 wanted to climb and aeroplane just couldn't comply with demand because of gravity and air density.
Both. PPRuNe constantly reminds me about the second one.
I am suggesting these loaded questions just show popular prejudice of the way modern passenger aeroplanes are flown and have merely slight resemblance to reality.
Originally Posted by Chris Scott
Setting aside your presumption that I hadn't read the reference to the TAM incident in the AF447 accident reports
Originally Posted by Chrıs Scott
are you suggesting that a "kid-gloves" approach would have been unsuitable in that case?
Originally Posted by Chrıs Scott
Are you arguing that the extreme control inputs and attitude changes that the BEA describes were necessary and desirable to survive that UAS event?
Originally Posted by Chrıs Scott
If not, just what point are you trying to make that places a "kid-gloves" recommendation into what you contemptuously describe as the "old wives' tales category"?
However, are you familiar with the concepts of "hands-on experience" and "human nature" ?
Are you suggesting that a passenger who has never driven a car can take over suddenly and do as good a job as the driver, just because he has watched from the back seat? And in any case, are you suggesting that flight crews should and do spend hours monitoring every small change of attitude made by the AP?
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Wengen
Age: 52
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Experts' Panel
Airbus rejected the findings of the Experts' report because one of the members was ex-AF with no Airbus experience whatsoever.
L’un d’entre eux, l’ancien pilote Alain de Valence a fait toute sa carrière chez Air France, qu’il n’a quitté qu’en 2007.
L?impartialité des experts mise en cause - Libération
L’un d’entre eux, l’ancien pilote Alain de Valence a fait toute sa carrière chez Air France, qu’il n’a quitté qu’en 2007.
L?impartialité des experts mise en cause - Libération
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Wengen
Age: 52
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
