Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

How many sectors do you handfly?

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

How many sectors do you handfly?

Old 4th Aug 2013, 11:15
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
It can't be moronic if it's a fact. Which it is.

Maybe if you don't want your airline to spend more money try and be more flexible and proactive when it comes to the tactical situation that you should see developing ahead of you. I'm not going to help you out. In fact I'm going to go out of my way to ensure that my airline benefits.
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2013, 13:14
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
John Smith is of the opinion that,,,

It's not about being 'welded to using the FD'. It's about making best use of automation. It is patently NOT appropriate to hand fly in certain situations, without an exceptionally good reason to do so.
As a line trainer I feel it most important to expose my students to all forms of manual flight, regardless of weather, and traffic situations. It gives the student confidence during line training, and the learning process. Not every Captain, nor Line Trainer has the same threshhold of pain.

Lets assume you are in cruise with EGLL is your destination. The Wx at EGLL is RVR 600 in BR. The Wx at EGSS is CAVOK. Just prior to TOD, all the automatics are T/U, is one to declare a "Pan Pan" and divert to EGSS? Pax would be peeved to say the least. That would be a rather interesting conversation with the C/P.

That's why the need for as much hand flying without automatics, in the Jet, ( not the simulator twice a year) for those who wish to maintain their proficiency.
captjns is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2013, 15:31
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
John, you keep quoting different things. I don't plan it but if the opportunity appears, usually because some idiot has got his head stuck up his , then I'll take it.

Let me give you a real life example.

Cruising merrily down to Spain and gradually overhauling an orange Airbus 2000 above us. Said orange Airbus starts weaving all over the sky, unnecessarily, to avoid some clouds. We start catching him up quite quickly now. After a while he requests descent and is cleared on the same arrival as we are. It's a procedural approach at destination and requires large spacing because they would only allow one aircraft at a time on the approach. At this point we also realise ATC are in no way interested in forward planning and have allowed us to get too close. Anyway, said orange airbus, now back at 245kts or so has descended through our level and is only 5 miles ahead of us. Not enough spacing and I can see us getting a hold or two, or three. So I elect to increase our speed all round and eventually get in front, then we request descent. We are first to the IAF whereupon ATC wake up and tell him to go around the hold at 7000' twice before he can start the approach. Que very unprofessional comment from said orange Airbus and much mirth in our flight deck.

So dear John you think I should've come back to min clean and let him go first, thereby screwing up our schedule and fuel plan or would you have done what I did, annoy them a bit and waste a few hundred kilos of their gas?

You or me pal.
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2013, 05:16
  #104 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,039
Anyway, said orange airbus, now back at 245kts or so has descended through our level and is only 5 miles ahead of us. Not enough spacing and I can see us getting a hold or two, or three. So I elect to increase our speed all round and eventually get in front, then we request descent.
Quite sure I have never before heard of quite such unprofessional conduct throughout my entire flying career. John Smith is correct at every level.

Oh yes, and by electing to increase your speed all round sufficient to get ahead in such a short timescale do you really think you saved any fuel?
Not a drop.
parabellum is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2013, 09:15
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Unsettled
Posts: 65
I always get slightly worried reading through these threads knowing I share airspace quite frequently with some posters on here.

All this adversarial language, speaking in terms of "your" and "my" airline, cutting people off, deliberately trying to screw over other pilots, etc...

Remember, you're all just one interview away from becoming actual colleagues in the same company, perhaps even from sitting next to each other in the flight deck.

Relax, go have a cup of tea and enjoy the weather. Most of us only get a few weeks of summer

Last edited by root; 5th Aug 2013 at 09:16.
root is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2013, 09:35
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
Quite sure I have never before heard of quite such unprofessional conduct throughout my entire flying career. John Smith is correct at every level.
Absolutely right. ATC should have seen this situation developing much earlier. They even knew we were both going to the same destination from the time we entered their airspace. Awful behaviour indeed.

Oh yes, and by electing to increase your speed all round sufficient to get ahead in such a short timescale do you really think you saved any fuel?
Not a drop.
Yes. Let me explain for you. The extra time at high speed in the cruise used about 80 kilos more than expected. A high speed, flight idle descent used no more and not flying around the hold twice at 7000' used close to 400 kilos less than we would have used. Got it? indeed.

I guess you'd have been back at min clean over 100 miles out and a couple of holds? Good thinking Mr Efficiency
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2013, 09:42
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Originally Posted by root View Post
All this adversarial language, speaking in terms of "your" and "my" airline, cutting people off, deliberately trying to screw over other pilots, etc...
We weren't trying to screw anyone over deliberately, an opportunity presented itself and we took it, that's all. Is there any reason I shouldn't try and save money for my airline? It's my job after all. What you do for yours is up to you but don't expect me to follow you around at the speeds you fly, if I can get ahead and be more expeditious I will.

, you're all just one interview away from becoming actual colleagues in the same company, perhaps even from sitting next to each other in the flight deck.
That's ok, it's nothing personal.
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2013, 09:57
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 7,749
High speed overtakes, min speed clean from 100nm out...

How many sectors do you blokes handfly again?
Capn Bloggs is online now  
Old 6th Aug 2013, 17:21
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Age: 72
Posts: 35
Lord Spandex Masher

What else do you do? Occupy the runway after landing to force the competition to go around?

What a disgusting creature you are!
willl05 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2013, 17:28
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Not yet, but thanks for the tip.

Maybe you could explain exactly what is so unprofessional and disgusting about flying faster than another aircraft? If your explanation is reasonable I will ask our flight planners to ensure that we never fly faster than anybody else.

Maybe you'd like to explain what you'd do in the situation I described.
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2013, 17:48
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Age: 72
Posts: 35
LMS:
If it means that you're going to be extended, stuck into the hold or whatever and use a load more gas then I shall make sure that happens.
Intentionally causing inefficiencies, even to the competition, hurts the industry as a whole.
willl05 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2013, 17:54
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
You must quote in context chap. That context being - I do not have to do a visual approach just because you want me to. I'm perfectly entitled to fly the full flight plan including the arrival and approach if I want to.

As is everybody else. Really disgusting.
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2013, 18:09
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Age: 72
Posts: 35
LMS

The sentence I quoted is quite clear. It does not say that you just want to follow your own plan; you have every right to do that. What it says is that you "shall make sure that" the other guy has to waste resources.
willl05 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2013, 18:17
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
That sentence is in response to another post, the one I quoted, telling everyone not to turn down the offer of a visual approach.

Which, according to you, I have every right to do. So what's the beef?
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2013, 19:49
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
No John, I haven't stated it was part of my approach planning. As you can see I said maybe that's what they did. When I said "I do that sometimes" I meant that I won't be forced into a visual approach just because I can hear the exasperated cries of Mr Rush behind us.

If you burn more fuel or get wound up as a by product of that then I don't care. If you think I'm going to go visual just so you don't get wound up or burn more fuel or because you are in a rush then you're wrong. So yes I'll make sure it happens by flying the approach the way I've planned to. However, I did say sometimes so if I'm with a decent FO and\or we've briefed or we're familiar enough then I will accept a visual. But not because you think I should because you're late, or whatever.

You say it's unprofessional yet you also say nobody should be bullied into a visual.
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2013, 20:05
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: On SBY next to my phone
Posts: 287
I don't handfly whole sectors but if a portion of the flight has some little trickier portions I try to handfly them raw data as often as possible depending on the captain on the flight. I fly the 737.

For instance tight DME arcs when there's a lot of wind, complex transitions with many letdowns having course and navaidchanges etc so I have to scan the approach plate as well, scanning simply instruments is not that stimulating. Otherwise I don't handily normal portions of the flight that I've been doing millions of time more than a few times a month. I'm busy fighting severe complacency
TypeIV is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2013, 04:40
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: On the couch
Posts: 15
Oh for the days when I'd go and do six 52 mile sectors in the morning in a DC-9.

Being a green and keen F/O in those days I never turned on the autopilot. Jaded skippers did, but not for long, takeoff to touchdown was about 12 minutes at 250 knots and 11 minutes at 320 knots.

It almost seemed like one continuous reading of the checklist from start to finish.

And when your navigation equipment consisted of 2 VOR's and 2 ADF's you could have your airplane set up for the return flight in under a minute.
Ultra Glide is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2013, 09:43
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Another Planet.
Posts: 549
YEAR 5s GETTING OUT OF ORDER?!

Now now class, settle down and be quiet and serious.

You 2 in the back row please stop comparing size and try to concentrate!!!

The OP raised a very interesting and potentially informative thread and some of you have descended into behaviour more suitable for behind the bike sheds than the sort of conduct we expect in this schools debating society.

Horrors, some airline management and regulators may even now be reading this, and we complain about a lack of respect and remuneration in our various form levels?!

Now let's have some calm reflection and thinking and try to persuade the head that we actually deserve to go on the school trip to the airport and see the planes and be allowed to visit the control tower, otherwise it will be detention for ALL of you ! ! ! ! ! !
BARKINGMAD is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2013, 14:44
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
Posts: 7,749
otherwise it will be detention for ALL of you ! ! ! ! ! !
I think a whipping with a disconnected auto throttle would be in order first.
Capn Bloggs is online now  
Old 7th Aug 2013, 17:50
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
First of all Barkingmad na naaaaa na naaaa naaaaaa You've got to catch me first

I appreciate I'm generally off the original topic although it has stemmed from a post concerning that topic and that's just the way most threads go anyway.

I'll be quiet when people stop calling me unprofessional and disgusting and offer me a realistic alternative to the situation(s) I have described. Which they haven't, not one.
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.