Once a pilot - now a computer's sidekick
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The autobrakes were selected earlier but after touchdown the speed brakes did not deploy and the reversers were not actuated. So the automatic brakes did not actuate. Still the penny had not dropped until the CVR heard "I got no brakes, man".
No, HDG/ALT/VS even ROLL/PITCH are all more appropriate than causing a possible worse situation from developing by taking the automation out. There is of course a time where there is no other option but it shouldn't be the first solution. If you can't manage the modes you shouldn't be flying the jet.
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I'm with Arnold E
Going into CWS or VS can also be very confusing for the PM rather than just disengaging and hand flying.
Maybe we need to specify a phase of flight i.e. Cruise/Approach/Unusual attitude.
Im also a Boeing guy - maybe the opposite for the Bus - never flown one.
Going into CWS or VS can also be very confusing for the PM rather than just disengaging and hand flying.
Maybe we need to specify a phase of flight i.e. Cruise/Approach/Unusual attitude.
Im also a Boeing guy - maybe the opposite for the Bus - never flown one.
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I've seen automation used when hand flying is the better option.
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"Jeez Jack - its CAVOK and I've got a sim check coming up -I need the practice."
Statistically, there is more likely to be a significant event occur with a reduced level of automation selected by the crew (unless overtaken by another significant event)
The Jeez Jack comment highlights the absurdity of modern airline flying thinking. "lets enhance the opportunity for a screw up because I want to use the real aeroplane to practice for a sim session".
Crazy.
Statistically, there is more likely to be a significant event occur with a reduced level of automation selected by the crew (unless overtaken by another significant event)
The Jeez Jack comment highlights the absurdity of modern airline flying thinking. "lets enhance the opportunity for a screw up because I want to use the real aeroplane to practice for a sim session".
Crazy.
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How right you are Zapatas, in my era, flying the aircraft was part of your training, your work, your learning, and your pleasure. I could always marvel that I got paid for doing something I loved so much. Now you are not allowed to touch the bloody thing, but still expected to get it out of trouble, when all the bells and whistles fail. Go figure. It is very interesting to read the QF Skippers account of his feelings after it all happened. My biggest could be disaster was the DC9 incident out of CBR which is documented. My F/O and myself, and a paxing Flighty got seriously pissed afterwards, along with a shaken cabin crew, and I guess that was our way of dealing with it, and I note the QF crew did exactly the same. Then you have to be prepared for the fallout afterwards. At first elation, then relief, then self doubt, followed by the fact that you had just faced your own mortality, and you look at your family and be grateful. I did not need professional help, and was given a fortnight off, but was glad to return to flying, with a new respect for the DC9 and its capacity to get itself out of trouble, with full fuel, full pax, and one donk that pulled like a Trojan, and as most of you know the terrain around CBR it bloody well needed to. I still think about it at times, it kept me awake for some time, considering it was not simply a engine failure due to tyre ingestion, but I was carrying the Treasurer (Keating) and most of the front bench of the Govt that night, had I pranged it would have changed this countries history, and I would have left my wife and my family to have that on their shoulders for ever more.
I disagree with this. The modern glass cockpit pilot must be a master of manipulating the FD/AP in all circumstances, especially when things are going off the rails. Disconnecting and hand flying is the easy option and in my opinion admits defeat.
There's nothing wrong with disconnecting and doing some pilot **** but it shouldn't be the first response when finding yourself in a "what's it doing now" moment.
There's nothing wrong with disconnecting and doing some pilot **** but it shouldn't be the first response when finding yourself in a "what's it doing now" moment.
A good Airbus example being a glide slope intercept from above, in a higher than normal energy state due whatever reason ( ATC or environmental ). It was previously simple to do it without the automatics and it is more limiting doing it with them. Fine, the new generation want a solution using the automatics. It has opened up a can of worms, with the automatic solution creating task saturation and the aircraft ending up in an undesired state on occasion. And the added risk that this task saturation with automatics, sees a tendency for raw data to be ignored, and the aircraft sails through the glideslope...
Unbelievable! The best solution is a pilot who is fully aware of the Flight Director limitations, a pilot who is confident in hand flying the aircraft, a pilot who never trusts the automation and monitors raw data. This delivers a pilot who will make the best choice under the circumstances. More often than not, he will use the automatics, but when airmanship dictates, a manual set up may be more desirable.
I am now realizing how lucky I was to be trained during the evolution of the glass cockpit jets. We were trained in the basics and built up the levels of supporting automation. The foundation of this training was always scanning and backing up with raw data. Yes, this is supposed to happen with the newer generation, but often they are task saturated with the automatics and cumbersome SOP's, that seem to complicate and blur scenarios where airmanship would deliver a common sense outcome.
Is this our problem? Pilots now live in fear of flying without the automatics or their SOP's limit their ability to do so. During uncommon events like a intermediate go around and a restrictive altitude, they encounter a startle factor as the SOP's haven't provided a solution and the limitations of the automatics are not understood or are unexplored. In this scenario, there is a chance the crew will just land long due a lack of confidence in doing a non-standard GA, or a 90% chance the GA maneuver is disorderly, due an inability to confidently manage the aircraft where the automatics may not deliver the best solution.
Pilots now live in fear of flying without the automatics or their SOP's limit their ability to do so
We are now so entrenched in such high levels of automation that it's too late to turn back time & actually fly a plane using skills long since lost.
The A/C of today are simply not designed to be manipulated manually other than in a basic fashion by a human purely in the interest of safety, that word that is used to protect & serve to avoid the crazy litigious world we now live in!
We still have A/C made of the same stuff,primarily aluminum etc: the speeds of yesterdays machines & today's haven't changed BUT the guy behind the steering wheel is changing or evolving & not for the best either in my opinion.
ALL the A/C manufacturers are now fully geared up to produce even more automation & this is the selling point of modern hardware in the future,not the need for or installation of experienced pilots from days gone by, they/us/we oldies are a dieing breed & will soon be 'bred' out of the cockpit altogether.
Soon in the not too distant future there won't be a single pilot around flying who has raw flying experience, system operators only will prevail up front in rows 1A&B to protect & serve!.
Some old retired pilots would have sat upon their verandah's watching aviation change many years ago right before their eyes to what we have today, but that same scene is being played out again.
The A/C of today are simply not designed to be manipulated manually other than in a basic fashion by a human purely in the interest of safety, that word that is used to protect & serve to avoid the crazy litigious world we now live in!
We still have A/C made of the same stuff,primarily aluminum etc: the speeds of yesterdays machines & today's haven't changed BUT the guy behind the steering wheel is changing or evolving & not for the best either in my opinion.
ALL the A/C manufacturers are now fully geared up to produce even more automation & this is the selling point of modern hardware in the future,not the need for or installation of experienced pilots from days gone by, they/us/we oldies are a dieing breed & will soon be 'bred' out of the cockpit altogether.
Soon in the not too distant future there won't be a single pilot around flying who has raw flying experience, system operators only will prevail up front in rows 1A&B to protect & serve!.
Some old retired pilots would have sat upon their verandah's watching aviation change many years ago right before their eyes to what we have today, but that same scene is being played out again.
The A/C of today are simply not designed to be manipulated manually other than in a basic fashion by a human purely in the interest of safety
Grandpa Aerotart
The A/C of today are simply not designed to be manipulated manually other than in a basic fashion by a human purely in the interest of safety,
I have flown the 787 level D sim and it is likewise delightful.
This is not about whether they can be hand flown its about whether you're allowed to and to want extent you SHOULD.
Bloggs suggested we could get all the hand flying practice we need in wide bodies flying between HKG-LHR etc etc below 10000' on nice sunny days - clearly he has never flown out of HKG or into LHR.
Certainly where I am based its the easiest thing in the world to hand fly below 10000' on arrival or departure and some of us do. Its not appropriate at places like HKG,LHR,DXB etc...its just too bloody busy...and after you have stared out at the DXB/LHR/FRA sky through 'two piss holes in the snow' a few times on arrival you soon realise that the trainers were telling the truth during the initial line training when they said you wouldn't necessarily be in any fit condition to hand fly after the 8,10 or 12 hours spent getting there.
I am not even convinced that lack of raw hand flying skills is the greatest challenge our profession faces.
Of course they are designed to be flown manually. Not a lot has changed in layout since Orville took off. What has changed is the mentality that aircraft are too dangerous to fly manually. SOPs and outsourcing of training has made sure of that.
A few people here still don't get it. Of course you can hand fly but with most companies SOP's it loads up the non-flying pilot to the detriment of his primary role of monitoring and cross-checking. MCP selection to support a PF manually flying can get very busy at times. The aircraft are designed for auto-pilot use to allow greater situational awarness, allowance for fatique etc. Not to mention giving the support pilot a free hand to cross check everything.
By all means keep hand-flying skills up, but only when the weather is good, traffic is light and brain is not fatigued.
The thought of some goose hand-flying the Lamborne hold and arrival into EGLL during peak hour traffic is mind-boggling.
By all means keep hand-flying skills up, but only when the weather is good, traffic is light and brain is not fatigued.
The thought of some goose hand-flying the Lamborne hold and arrival into EGLL during peak hour traffic is mind-boggling.
it loads up the non-flying pilot to the detriment of his primary role of monitoring and cross-checking.
Reminds me of the time I was flying a 737 in perfect conditions somewhere over Europe and decided to hand fly at high altitide and follow the VOR tracks on the flight plan. I told the 300 hour cadet first officer of my intentions to switch off the FD, AP and AT and fly by hand. He sat bolt upright and was all panicked attention and then I nearly wet myself with laughter when he said he had better don his shoulder harness if I was going to hand fly. Clearly he was seriously frightened!
Sprucegoose
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What a great thread, keep it up guys!
As someone who has only experienced the magic boxes in the last six months, I must admit that if I have a 'what's it doing now moment' I revert straight to raw data, because that's what I know. Gee it must be nice though to have a second pair of hands to sort the automatics, while you're wrestling with the Airplane*.
* Spelling deliberate, after all it is from Wichita...
As someone who has only experienced the magic boxes in the last six months, I must admit that if I have a 'what's it doing now moment' I revert straight to raw data, because that's what I know. Gee it must be nice though to have a second pair of hands to sort the automatics, while you're wrestling with the Airplane*.
* Spelling deliberate, after all it is from Wichita...
Sprucegoose
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Capn Bloggs, aren't they all? It's just the speed and number of bugs that varies!