What Happened to the Aft Engine Mounted "T" Tail Design?
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
From: KLAX
What Happened to the Aft Engine Mounted "T" Tail Design?
Today, jet transport manufacturers seem to be exclusively manufacturing medium range airplanes that feature a wing pylon mounted engine design. Clean "T" tail designs that have worked in the past (designs such as the MD-80, B-717, B-727, TU 54, Trident, VC10) are not being improved, and such a design style seems to be now becoming abandoned to history.
Could the sleek DC-9/MD-80 have been better engineered to outlive that of the ubiquitous B-737 and A-320?
Fuselage engine mounted "T" tail airplanes are quieter, not as susceptible to pod strikes or FOD, and have better single engine asymmetrical performance. . . a clean wing looks better too!
Even Embraer has switched to a wing mount design. . . . so why are such "T" tail designs a sudden historic thing of the past?
Could the sleek DC-9/MD-80 have been better engineered to outlive that of the ubiquitous B-737 and A-320?
Fuselage engine mounted "T" tail airplanes are quieter, not as susceptible to pod strikes or FOD, and have better single engine asymmetrical performance. . . a clean wing looks better too!
Even Embraer has switched to a wing mount design. . . . so why are such "T" tail designs a sudden historic thing of the past?
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
From: F370
Off the top of my head:
Engines under the wing help with the spanwise loading, allowing a lighter wing structure. The engines are also very accessible.
Aft mounted engines mean the wings need to be further back on the fuselage, reducing the moment arm for the empennage (larger tail surfaces needed). Also, more noise in the cabin. And fuel lines from the wings to the engines.
For larger aircraft, the aft engine design becomes less attractive.
BTW, you'll never get a pod strike on a twin with the gear close to the engine.
Engines under the wing help with the spanwise loading, allowing a lighter wing structure. The engines are also very accessible.
Aft mounted engines mean the wings need to be further back on the fuselage, reducing the moment arm for the empennage (larger tail surfaces needed). Also, more noise in the cabin. And fuel lines from the wings to the engines.
For larger aircraft, the aft engine design becomes less attractive.
BTW, you'll never get a pod strike on a twin with the gear close to the engine.
Last edited by AtoBsafely; 21st July 2012 at 16:13. Reason: Afterthought
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
From: alameda
Boeing happened. boeing bought Mcdonnel Douglas and started to phase out the DC9/MD80 etc.
I had the rare opportunity to watch a brand new MD90 take off from KDCA...the sound level was so low, the pitch so high...it was magnificent.
I've piloted both the DC9 and the 737...no comparison...the DC9 is much nicer to fly, much quieter in the cockpit. Nicer on the controls.
while there is an advantage in the way the wing is loaded with engines on the wing, it is easily overcome by the beautiful, clean wing design, simpler leading and trailing edge devices as there is no engine to interrupt the flap.
I understand DELTA airlines is looking to buy every MD90 they can find as they have exceptional performance in some areas needed. Indeed, DELTA still flys more than 30 DC9's as they can find nothing that can truly replace them.
The DC9 series doesn't change pitch with power changes. IF you add power on a 737, the nose goes up, cut power and it goes down.
ITS all about money...and NO one on the ground has been sucked into a DC9's engines...but a number have been sucked into the 737's.
I had the rare opportunity to watch a brand new MD90 take off from KDCA...the sound level was so low, the pitch so high...it was magnificent.
I've piloted both the DC9 and the 737...no comparison...the DC9 is much nicer to fly, much quieter in the cockpit. Nicer on the controls.
while there is an advantage in the way the wing is loaded with engines on the wing, it is easily overcome by the beautiful, clean wing design, simpler leading and trailing edge devices as there is no engine to interrupt the flap.
I understand DELTA airlines is looking to buy every MD90 they can find as they have exceptional performance in some areas needed. Indeed, DELTA still flys more than 30 DC9's as they can find nothing that can truly replace them.
The DC9 series doesn't change pitch with power changes. IF you add power on a 737, the nose goes up, cut power and it goes down.
ITS all about money...and NO one on the ground has been sucked into a DC9's engines...but a number have been sucked into the 737's.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,581
Likes: 0
From: flyover country USA
Heavier aft fuselage structure, i.e. longer load path from the mass of the engines to the source of lift.
Additionally - disturbed airflow over the top of the wing root gets swallowed by the engine inlet, leading to inlet distortion and operability issues. Aircraft from the Caravelle to the A-10 (& probably more) experienced flight test problems because of this.
Additionally - disturbed airflow over the top of the wing root gets swallowed by the engine inlet, leading to inlet distortion and operability issues. Aircraft from the Caravelle to the A-10 (& probably more) experienced flight test problems because of this.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,581
Likes: 0
From: flyover country USA
slam_click:
I wouldn't draw much of a distinction there; The Canadair RJ's engines (CF34) are bypass 4 or more. The TF34 (basically the same engine) in the A-10 likewise.
Low bypass vs High bypass engines would also be a large reason.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 423
Likes: 1
From: Malvern, UK
The picture above is an excellent illustration of the main reason.
That must be a very strong structure to carry those engines and transfer their thrust to the airframe. And so must add considerable weight.
Why not hang the engines from a horizontal structure that you already have i.e. the wings? And then indeed (as has already been mentioned) the wings need less strength because the lift that overcomes the weight of the engines does not need to be transferred to the airframe. The engines are also very close to their fuel supply.
One begins to wonder how rear mounting designs survived as long as they did.
Of course for business jets there isn't sufficient clearance under the wing so they continue with the rear mount approach. Except I seem to recall seeing a picture of a light jet (Honda?) with top mounted wing pods! Maybe the future?
That must be a very strong structure to carry those engines and transfer their thrust to the airframe. And so must add considerable weight.
Why not hang the engines from a horizontal structure that you already have i.e. the wings? And then indeed (as has already been mentioned) the wings need less strength because the lift that overcomes the weight of the engines does not need to be transferred to the airframe. The engines are also very close to their fuel supply.
One begins to wonder how rear mounting designs survived as long as they did.
Of course for business jets there isn't sufficient clearance under the wing so they continue with the rear mount approach. Except I seem to recall seeing a picture of a light jet (Honda?) with top mounted wing pods! Maybe the future?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,726
Likes: 103
From: The Winchester
top mounted wing pods! Maybe the future?
VFW-Fokker 614 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,570
Likes: 374
From: PLanet Earth
Otherwise I see not a single real design advantage of the rear mounted engine.
Besides the additional required mounting structure and the weight of the engines fully adding to the moments on the wing box, tail mounted engines usually require T- tails or at least raised HS, further increasing the weight penalty. The other issues like longer fuel lines, unfavourably long forward fuselage or disturbed air entering the engines have already been mentioned.
Therefore I fully agree to your first statement in the quote.
Last edited by henra; 23rd July 2012 at 20:54.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 79
From: Denver
On the flip side...
Tail-mounted engines are more protected from runway FOD on unimproved surfaces, thus their use on Russian airliners and the A-10 (and may have figured in Canadair's thinking, for use in the "Siberia of the West").
And of course the "three-holers" had to have at least one (L-1011, DC-10, MD-11) or more (727, Trident) engines in the tail anyway, as a stepping-stone before engines were powerful enough for two to be sufficient on heavier long-range planes.
With wing-mounted engines, the wing root carries less weight load in flight - but more thrust loads.
There was a design "cachet" to T-tail designs in general in the 60's + 70s, beyond simple functionality. They had that F-104 "Starfighter coolness", even if they were pedestrian planes otherwise (Tomahawk, Skipper, Seminole, Duchess).
But absent any of those "special needs", two or four under the wing is likely the pattern for the future except for small planes that don't have room there. Or have one engine.
And of course the "three-holers" had to have at least one (L-1011, DC-10, MD-11) or more (727, Trident) engines in the tail anyway, as a stepping-stone before engines were powerful enough for two to be sufficient on heavier long-range planes.
With wing-mounted engines, the wing root carries less weight load in flight - but more thrust loads.
There was a design "cachet" to T-tail designs in general in the 60's + 70s, beyond simple functionality. They had that F-104 "Starfighter coolness", even if they were pedestrian planes otherwise (Tomahawk, Skipper, Seminole, Duchess).
But absent any of those "special needs", two or four under the wing is likely the pattern for the future except for small planes that don't have room there. Or have one engine.
Last edited by pattern_is_full; 23rd July 2012 at 21:35.
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,049
Likes: 535
From: Wherever it is this month
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,407
Likes: 0
From: engineer at large
yes, tipping over,
and as with the L1011, the upper engines were more difficult, ie, checked less for ice buildup, and accordingly the associates issues.
and as with the L1011, the upper engines were more difficult, ie, checked less for ice buildup, and accordingly the associates issues.
Last edited by FlightPathOBN; 23rd July 2012 at 23:55.
Psychophysiological entity
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,383
Likes: 169
From: Walton on the Naze Essex.
That's reminded me. Early to mid 60s, one of the most beautiful aircraft of all time sat on her tail at Liverpool as I was looking straight at it. Such was the speed of rotation, that an engineer on a nacelle was thrown upwards. ( He landed on the servicing gantry and seemed okay.)
Much checking of load sheets by a very worried looking skipper.
Much checking of load sheets by a very worried looking skipper.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17,695
Likes: 2,033
From: Reading, UK
Did rear mounted engined aircraft ever have a problem with tipping whilst on the ground? Too much weight in the back during loading etc?
It had the rear 20' or so of the cabin blanked off so that there was no payload located there, but even so it still needed its pogo-stick:
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 2,033
Likes: 14
From: London, UK
Otherwise I see not a single real design advantage of the rear mounted engine.
Last edited by Groundloop; 24th July 2012 at 07:48.