Difficulty on first few flights (a320 line training)
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Difficulty on first few flights (a320 line training)
Just making this thread because I seem to be a little worried.
Things go rather much faster than I am used to generally.
My R/T could use SOME work, but it's nothing practice won't fix I guess.
With the headphones off, and on loudspeaker, I find it more difficult to listen to long clearances.
A lot of workload I am not used to.
Find myself lost in the airway manual sometimes, and just not always ahead of the aircraft.
I have had a lot of gaps between flights, and i am also a newbie with only 400 hours TT on single engine.
Is this normal? I could use some advice.
Thanks in advance.
Things go rather much faster than I am used to generally.
My R/T could use SOME work, but it's nothing practice won't fix I guess.
With the headphones off, and on loudspeaker, I find it more difficult to listen to long clearances.
A lot of workload I am not used to.
Find myself lost in the airway manual sometimes, and just not always ahead of the aircraft.
I have had a lot of gaps between flights, and i am also a newbie with only 400 hours TT on single engine.
Is this normal? I could use some advice.
Thanks in advance.
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Seems pretty normal. You've go 400 hours. I suspect most of that is in the instructional environment?
Flying the line in an air carrier twin jet with 400 hours of single engine time? You should be playing catch up.
Flying the line in an air carrier twin jet with 400 hours of single engine time? You should be playing catch up.
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We dont offer P2F, all of our cadets are airline sponsored, they are given jet orientation, then more simulator time that normal, along with state of the art training aids..... its a slow process in order to allow them to study and be prepared... Then they begin line training... even with all of the preparation, some fail because it is bloody tough.....
So hang in there and remember that its up to your instructor to assess you based on what he expects from someone with 400 hours, not for you to assess yourself based on what you think you should be able to do
Mutt
So hang in there and remember that its up to your instructor to assess you based on what he expects from someone with 400 hours, not for you to assess yourself based on what you think you should be able to do
Mutt
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Is this normal? I could use some advice.
2) Ask your line training Captains. How are your debriefs?
We armchair quarterbacks certainly cannot monitor/adjust your line training
WhySoTough:- Welcome to the real world, being an Airline Pilot ain't all coffee and great views is it!!
400 hrs and you wonder why you have trouble flying a complicated 460 kt Jet at 39,000'
The mind boggles!!
I was lucky to get my hands on a Piper Seminole at the 400 hour mark.
What are the Airlines thinking????
400 hrs and you wonder why you have trouble flying a complicated 460 kt Jet at 39,000'
The mind boggles!!
I was lucky to get my hands on a Piper Seminole at the 400 hour mark.
What are the Airlines thinking????
Last edited by nitpicker330; 1st Jul 2012 at 07:23.
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Thanks for the responses guys.
It's mostly flight training, then some hours as an instructor before the flight school shut down..
Just to be clear, this isn't p2F, not paying for the hours.
The instructors have been happy so far, with the minor things here and there, most have given me good remarks, but I personally see that my performance isn't great, and that it's generally quiet tough.
Thanks again.
It's mostly flight training, then some hours as an instructor before the flight school shut down..
Just to be clear, this isn't p2F, not paying for the hours.
The instructors have been happy so far, with the minor things here and there, most have given me good remarks, but I personally see that my performance isn't great, and that it's generally quiet tough.
Thanks again.
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It's to be expected and flight trainers are aware of the big jump for low houred cadets. After all it has been the normal way in europe for the last 60 years to jump right out of flightschool into an airliner, so there is a lot of training experience about it.
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Like the other said, probably normal progress.
In comment to some of the posts above, I find that the student has an equal responsibility to improve. The trainer sets the framework for the learning process, but the best instructor you will find is actually yourself.
Even if you instructors are satisfied with your progress, I find it an advantage that you question yourself and may actually be more ambitious. Just be careful not to put yourself under too much pressure.
I would recommend is to make a personal scoresheet in excel or something like that. Each leg on one axis and on the other a field for preflight/taxi, takeoff, climb... to taxi in, and shutdown. For each field put in the most important point to improve/mistake for each leg. You can put in other fields where you have difficulties like RT. Don't write long stories, but in shorthand that you easily can compare each flight.
That way you can track if there are things that you continuously forget or mess up and improve them yourself.
In comment to some of the posts above, I find that the student has an equal responsibility to improve. The trainer sets the framework for the learning process, but the best instructor you will find is actually yourself.
Even if you instructors are satisfied with your progress, I find it an advantage that you question yourself and may actually be more ambitious. Just be careful not to put yourself under too much pressure.
I would recommend is to make a personal scoresheet in excel or something like that. Each leg on one axis and on the other a field for preflight/taxi, takeoff, climb... to taxi in, and shutdown. For each field put in the most important point to improve/mistake for each leg. You can put in other fields where you have difficulties like RT. Don't write long stories, but in shorthand that you easily can compare each flight.
That way you can track if there are things that you continuously forget or mess up and improve them yourself.
Dog Tired
Nitpicker: give him some space.
I have flown with many, many low-hour pilots; they need time to develop.
Whyso: relax. If you have a job and are flying, you are on top of the world.
Good luck.
I have flown with many, many low-hour pilots; they need time to develop.
Whyso: relax. If you have a job and are flying, you are on top of the world.
Good luck.
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my 2 cents on line training
pre flight prep is key. know EVERYTHING about your next sector. taxi routing, ground freqs, sid's, NADP's, engine out routings, airways, airways notes, airspace boundry, STARS, the approach charts, taxi routing after landing, usual parking bays at destination. most of this info, you can get from seniors, and other guys who have been online for awhile. make friends, force them to help you.. buy beer for them, that usually works huhu
i used to spend the whole night before flight looking at the details of the flight. calling up my buddies who are online and bugging them about anything i'm unsure of. i can tell you, the online guys can name you waypoints all around the world which are of interest, the tricks and traps in certain FIRs. always keep an eye on the traps.. it'll kill you at the worst, get you a proper written warning at the best.
next, concentrate on time management. especially on the ground. preping the aircraft, doing your briefing, take off analysis charts. plan your work flow, and dont get distracted (i know of some instructors who will delay you on purpose to get you to panic. he wants to see you under pressure). practice your take off briefing until you can do it in one breath (without thinking too much is what i mean)
then time management in the air before decent. practice arrival briefings at home, know the flow. practice a general airport and fm briefing at home hundreds of times.
then the landings (if you have any trouble with that) this can be done by reading the fctm, bunk flying/flight sim(buy a computer flight controller to get used to the side stick, there are good A320 sim software [wilco airbus series] out there, its not 100% the same as airbus, its simulates normal law not too bad, flare law is kinda whack, but it helps, helps alot. just dont use the flight sim figures in real life, this is more of an exercise for you to get used to the sidestick and trying to make small corrections during the final approach phase/ also it will help you with your FMGEC work. i remember when i was on the turboprops, my housemate used to fly PMDG's 738 flight sim and i used to join in, by the time i got on to the 73, fm work was pie) and paying close attention to the instructor during p2 duties. try and get your body to be hyper sensitive to changes in attitude and sink rates, acceleration and deceleration rates. anticipate momentum, remember the inertia, small corrections early. if you are tuned enough, you'll come to a point where the FD's will follow you instead of you following it. breathe and concentrate.
descent planning. learn your 3 times table, and as you become more aware, pay attention to traffic and try to anticipate when ATC will give direct tracks, and when they will ask you to slow down during approach. this can be done with good usage of ears(listening out to RT and being aware how many a/c are on approach, where they are, and what speeds they are doing) and good usage of TCAS display. knowing who is in front of you in sequence, will give you good anticipation of whats gonna happen next. also, know exactly how long it takes the aircraft to decel in level flight, decending flight, tail/head wind effects.
all of these items may not apply to you, but of all my years as a safety co pilot, from newbies on the turbo props to guys who come up to widebody from narrow body jets seem to always lose the plot around these few areas.
finally is book knowledge.. you gotta help yourself there.
i used to spend the whole night before flight looking at the details of the flight. calling up my buddies who are online and bugging them about anything i'm unsure of. i can tell you, the online guys can name you waypoints all around the world which are of interest, the tricks and traps in certain FIRs. always keep an eye on the traps.. it'll kill you at the worst, get you a proper written warning at the best.
next, concentrate on time management. especially on the ground. preping the aircraft, doing your briefing, take off analysis charts. plan your work flow, and dont get distracted (i know of some instructors who will delay you on purpose to get you to panic. he wants to see you under pressure). practice your take off briefing until you can do it in one breath (without thinking too much is what i mean)
then time management in the air before decent. practice arrival briefings at home, know the flow. practice a general airport and fm briefing at home hundreds of times.
then the landings (if you have any trouble with that) this can be done by reading the fctm, bunk flying/flight sim(buy a computer flight controller to get used to the side stick, there are good A320 sim software [wilco airbus series] out there, its not 100% the same as airbus, its simulates normal law not too bad, flare law is kinda whack, but it helps, helps alot. just dont use the flight sim figures in real life, this is more of an exercise for you to get used to the sidestick and trying to make small corrections during the final approach phase/ also it will help you with your FMGEC work. i remember when i was on the turboprops, my housemate used to fly PMDG's 738 flight sim and i used to join in, by the time i got on to the 73, fm work was pie) and paying close attention to the instructor during p2 duties. try and get your body to be hyper sensitive to changes in attitude and sink rates, acceleration and deceleration rates. anticipate momentum, remember the inertia, small corrections early. if you are tuned enough, you'll come to a point where the FD's will follow you instead of you following it. breathe and concentrate.
descent planning. learn your 3 times table, and as you become more aware, pay attention to traffic and try to anticipate when ATC will give direct tracks, and when they will ask you to slow down during approach. this can be done with good usage of ears(listening out to RT and being aware how many a/c are on approach, where they are, and what speeds they are doing) and good usage of TCAS display. knowing who is in front of you in sequence, will give you good anticipation of whats gonna happen next. also, know exactly how long it takes the aircraft to decel in level flight, decending flight, tail/head wind effects.
all of these items may not apply to you, but of all my years as a safety co pilot, from newbies on the turbo props to guys who come up to widebody from narrow body jets seem to always lose the plot around these few areas.
finally is book knowledge.. you gotta help yourself there.
Last edited by cav-not-ok; 1st Jul 2012 at 23:39.
Don't be discouraged, we all had to start somewhere, you are doing better than you think you are.
Your insight that you could improve is actually the sign of a true professional, he or she always try's to improve on every flight. I always go over, in my mind what I could have done better and try to apply it on my next flight.
On the other hand, as already pointed out, don't obsess or worry needlessly about mistakes, or a less than perfect performance, no one else is.
It is a constant learning situation and process of self improvement, from the most inexperienced new Pilot to the experienced veteran, at least it should be.
Incidentally, even after having flown jet transports for many years when converting onto a new type I find it takes me about a year to be completely comfortable with it, there are lots of nuances and things to learn, especially when changing to a different manufacturer.
Work at it, but most of all enjoy
Your insight that you could improve is actually the sign of a true professional, he or she always try's to improve on every flight. I always go over, in my mind what I could have done better and try to apply it on my next flight.
On the other hand, as already pointed out, don't obsess or worry needlessly about mistakes, or a less than perfect performance, no one else is.
It is a constant learning situation and process of self improvement, from the most inexperienced new Pilot to the experienced veteran, at least it should be.
Incidentally, even after having flown jet transports for many years when converting onto a new type I find it takes me about a year to be completely comfortable with it, there are lots of nuances and things to learn, especially when changing to a different manufacturer.
Work at it, but most of all enjoy
Last edited by stilton; 2nd Jul 2012 at 04:18.
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WST
relax, it's absolutely normal.
As a matter of fact, it is a good thing that you are "worried", if that worry does not make you anxious or something.
Because it means you are monitoring yourself and in a "learning" mode. That's very good. Keep it like that in the next years... and decades. Never stop learning and monitoring your weaknesses and your experience will make you a much better pilot than one who just doesn't care.
be happy!
relax, it's absolutely normal.
As a matter of fact, it is a good thing that you are "worried", if that worry does not make you anxious or something.
Because it means you are monitoring yourself and in a "learning" mode. That's very good. Keep it like that in the next years... and decades. Never stop learning and monitoring your weaknesses and your experience will make you a much better pilot than one who just doesn't care.
be happy!
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if you are tuned enough, you'll come to a point where the FD's will follow you instead of you following it.
Flight Directors are suggestions, not commands.
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Flight Directors are suggestions, not commands.
You would be surprise how many 10000+ hours pilot follows it like if it's a command from god!
But like most others have said, preparation is the key. Just have a piece of paper of frequencies and navaids that you'll encounter on route, study the charts that you'll most likely to use...etc. Make sure your procedures are down pat, go through the geographic and different phrases of flight in your mind at home.
Know your recalls. I like to do mine in the car on the way to work. Afterall, when you do do it in a real emergency you are not going to be sitting in your comfy coach, feet up, just focused on doing the recall.
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I know what you mean.
Sometimes, when the preceding traffic is altering the localizer beam, the FD will command a slight bank in the wrong sense. In VMC and manual flight there is no point in following it. I just keep aligned with the centerline and wait for the FD bar to come back to me. Sometimes I hear "follow the bars" or something. I hate that.
I am also an advocate of making the bars come, in this sense: the bars tell me what they want, in order to achieve the target. then I bank and or pitch as necessary to achieve the target. As I bank ad or pitch, the bars change. they give targets, they don't have to be followed while they move. If you achieve the pitch and bank angle required, they will be centered. For instance, if the order is bank 25º right, the bar is fully to the right. I don't rush to follow it (it goes there very quickly). Instead I gently roll to 25º and the bar will come to me as much as I do come to it, but gently. Same for pitch. Sometimes the target is too much and I know that if I go for it slowly the bar will reverse and meet with me halfway. If I followed the command quicky I would have to make two inputs in both senses.
It's important to know that it is not necessary to follow the bars as they move, but to gently reach the target they are marking.
Sometimes, when the preceding traffic is altering the localizer beam, the FD will command a slight bank in the wrong sense. In VMC and manual flight there is no point in following it. I just keep aligned with the centerline and wait for the FD bar to come back to me. Sometimes I hear "follow the bars" or something. I hate that.
I am also an advocate of making the bars come, in this sense: the bars tell me what they want, in order to achieve the target. then I bank and or pitch as necessary to achieve the target. As I bank ad or pitch, the bars change. they give targets, they don't have to be followed while they move. If you achieve the pitch and bank angle required, they will be centered. For instance, if the order is bank 25º right, the bar is fully to the right. I don't rush to follow it (it goes there very quickly). Instead I gently roll to 25º and the bar will come to me as much as I do come to it, but gently. Same for pitch. Sometimes the target is too much and I know that if I go for it slowly the bar will reverse and meet with me halfway. If I followed the command quicky I would have to make two inputs in both senses.
It's important to know that it is not necessary to follow the bars as they move, but to gently reach the target they are marking.
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It takes guys with a bunch of experience about 100 hrs in type to stop feeling uncomfortable and about 500 hrs, or one year, to feel really comfortable in type.
With 400 hrs TT you've got a tiger by the tail. Work hard and WATCH what your more experienced coworkers, be it CA or FO, do. Observe, study, be prepared, and figure out how to raise your game to their level. It will take time.
If you ever give up the tiger will turn around and bite you.
With 400 hrs TT you've got a tiger by the tail. Work hard and WATCH what your more experienced coworkers, be it CA or FO, do. Observe, study, be prepared, and figure out how to raise your game to their level. It will take time.
If you ever give up the tiger will turn around and bite you.
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One other thing that will really help with the radios (especially on longer sectors) is to look at the flight plan and pick out the VORs and their full names.
That way, when you're cleared direct to Karlsruhe or Coulommiers you have a vague idea of what's just been said to you and know the ident (KRH or CLM for example) to look for in the flight plan.
But IMHO experience with the radios only comes with time. If your airline flies with headsets on in the cruise bite the bullet and get a noise-canceling one.
That way, when you're cleared direct to Karlsruhe or Coulommiers you have a vague idea of what's just been said to you and know the ident (KRH or CLM for example) to look for in the flight plan.
But IMHO experience with the radios only comes with time. If your airline flies with headsets on in the cruise bite the bullet and get a noise-canceling one.