B777 Raw data ILS technique
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Busser - 11 items? Unless the non flying pilot is a quick counter you'll go around before he gets to two.
Centerline lights, touchdown zone lights, runway end markings, runway lights, approach light termination bar, approach lights, REIL, PAPI, etc, etc.
Centerline lights, touchdown zone lights, runway end markings, runway lights, approach light termination bar, approach lights, REIL, PAPI, etc, etc.
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and there are professional pilots to day who don't know they can go to touchdown zone elevation plus 100 feet just on the strobes/rabbit(as we called it).
I think after a few missed approaches,they may start wondering why and start reading again
Last edited by de facto; 18th Jun 2012 at 03:05.
initial rate of descent is approximately 5 times your groundspeed in knots...Apch groundspeed 140 knots...your initial descent rate 700 fpm...
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 18th Jun 2012 at 09:46.
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Raw data 777, which works equally as well on the 75/767.
ND exp ILS, put the white track line on top of the head of the CDI, and keep it there ( ensuring to match the CDI with the QDM)
Second thing, a 3 degree slope works perfectly with 1/2 the groundspeed, so I use the IVSI on the PFD as my primary guide to correct G/S deviations...it provides accurate and instant feedback..and works much better in the sim than using the pitch attitude...having an idea of the ballpark pitch attitude is good...but the IVSI referenced against the groundspeed results in an approach being really really accurate and stops deviations before they trend any further.
ND exp ILS, put the white track line on top of the head of the CDI, and keep it there ( ensuring to match the CDI with the QDM)
Second thing, a 3 degree slope works perfectly with 1/2 the groundspeed, so I use the IVSI on the PFD as my primary guide to correct G/S deviations...it provides accurate and instant feedback..and works much better in the sim than using the pitch attitude...having an idea of the ballpark pitch attitude is good...but the IVSI referenced against the groundspeed results in an approach being really really accurate and stops deviations before they trend any further.
Last edited by haughtney1; 18th Jun 2012 at 15:06.
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Hi Haughtney 1: Ah, some common sense at last. You fly a raw data ILS in Raw Data ILS mode. Good stuff. It works on non-GPS a/c because the MAP might have shifted. That, plus the MAP, even in 5nm range gives a very small RWY symbol, so it is difficult to see exactly where the centre line is. Plus you have to cross reference that with the LOC on PFD; so you are scanning 2 screens for 1 dtaum. Meanwhile in Raw Data mode there is a bl£@dy great ILS deviation bar and an equally large TK line. 1 screen. Put one on top of the other and low and behold you are flying down the ILS centre line, assuming the ILS deviation bar is centred. If you see the TK line deviate Left or Right of the ILS symbol you simply return it to impose itself over the ILS beam bar. If the ILS deviation bar has moved you simply aim at it and bring it back to the centre. Child's play. 10 degrees of bank, max. easy to over control.
Fly the glideslope in constant configuration. Constant speed=constant attitude=constant V/S=constant Power=constant trim. All you have to do is guide (not fly) the a/c down the LOC. Fingers & thumbs. As the wind changes so will the vertical performance, but by very little, so smooth small changes to Power/ATT/Trim to keep correct V/S when on Glideslope. Ain't nothing magical; just get it set up early at Glideslope capture and keep it there. RELAX. Doddle.
Fly the glideslope in constant configuration. Constant speed=constant attitude=constant V/S=constant Power=constant trim. All you have to do is guide (not fly) the a/c down the LOC. Fingers & thumbs. As the wind changes so will the vertical performance, but by very little, so smooth small changes to Power/ATT/Trim to keep correct V/S when on Glideslope. Ain't nothing magical; just get it set up early at Glideslope capture and keep it there. RELAX. Doddle.
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MAP is not used for centerline guidance. That's what the LOC needle is for.
What the MAP is good for is checking to see if your track is parallel, divergent, or convergent. From that you can make small adjustments.
Pitch attitude and heading are primary attitude instruments. Ground speed, VSI, MAP, N1's, etc, etc, are for fine tuning. ILS needles are the judge/final decider.
What the MAP is good for is checking to see if your track is parallel, divergent, or convergent. From that you can make small adjustments.
Pitch attitude and heading are primary attitude instruments. Ground speed, VSI, MAP, N1's, etc, etc, are for fine tuning. ILS needles are the judge/final decider.
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SSR stated it like our airline stated it exactly. Strobes from 200 ft to 100 ft then you need actual runway identification. Runway end identifier lights or runway lights. We all know that of course. Before my airline career I used gas station signs and other stuff to verify my descent but thought it might be a good idea to pay attention to all rules once an airline pilot. Much more to lose.
MAP is not used for centerline guidance. That's what the LOC needle is for.
What the MAP is good for is checking to see if your track is parallel, divergent, or convergent. From that you can make small adjustments.
Pitch attitude and heading are primary attitude instruments. Ground speed, VSI, MAP, N1's, etc, etc, are for fine tuning. ILS needles are the judge/final decider.
What the MAP is good for is checking to see if your track is parallel, divergent, or convergent. From that you can make small adjustments.
Pitch attitude and heading are primary attitude instruments. Ground speed, VSI, MAP, N1's, etc, etc, are for fine tuning. ILS needles are the judge/final decider.
I would say this post pretty much ends the discussion.
Seems like Sevenstrokeroll is trying to be the new 411A.........
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Somehow I can not see one thing that SSR has said that is wrong. I looked back several pages and find nothing but good information. He came up from the old school pilots and has proven himself many times. He started from scratch and worked his way up to the airlines. He could fly an Airbus tomorrow but probably wouldn't want to because he likes to hand fly. Listen to what he has to say and learn.
I meant it as a compliment. Capt Welliver ruffled more then a few feathers but I found his posts usually had some great nuggets of information and his pretty direct to the point posting style livened up some pretty pedantic threads over the years
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big pistons...then I profoundly apologize.
hey bubbers...what do you think of the comments on P51 guy and protectthehornet? ;-)
It does seem to me that a return to basics wouldn't hurt anyone.
I will relate one more thing if I may.
20 years ago, while based in Boston, I struck up a conversation with a prof at MIT (massachusetts institute of technology)...he occupied the Boeing chair in aeronautics.
he said point blank that the day of the highly skilled pilot was over and that anyone with 300 hours could handle the new computerized planes...and this was the plan so that the new planes could be sold to the countries with more money than pilots!
I asked thime what they would do when the gadgets failed...he said they wouldn't .
Shades of HAL 9000!
go back to basics!!!!!
hey bubbers...what do you think of the comments on P51 guy and protectthehornet? ;-)
It does seem to me that a return to basics wouldn't hurt anyone.
I will relate one more thing if I may.
20 years ago, while based in Boston, I struck up a conversation with a prof at MIT (massachusetts institute of technology)...he occupied the Boeing chair in aeronautics.
he said point blank that the day of the highly skilled pilot was over and that anyone with 300 hours could handle the new computerized planes...and this was the plan so that the new planes could be sold to the countries with more money than pilots!
I asked thime what they would do when the gadgets failed...he said they wouldn't .
Shades of HAL 9000!
go back to basics!!!!!
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SSR, I believe what they said. I think we have come to the end of real pilots flying airplanes after this generation. It scares me but it is our future. We will have monitors controling our aircraft, not real pilots. So get ready for it. Kind of scary, isn't it?
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posrategearup
To: bobdazzle
A key to total raw (last resort) data ILS approach is small corrections. With ref to localizer, try using the Heading Bug on the half-moon compass card at the bottom of the primary flight display. The 'bug' itself is about 10 degrees wide. Have the other pilot adjust it for the cross wind component, and then keep your heading within the confines of the 'bug' (+/- 5 degrees). If you can't make your corrections within that limit, you should go around and start over. Otherwise the tendency is to increase your bank with the intent of correcting faster...but resulting in an ever-increasing error. PIO. A raw data approach is very nearly an emergency!!
A key to total raw (last resort) data ILS approach is small corrections. With ref to localizer, try using the Heading Bug on the half-moon compass card at the bottom of the primary flight display. The 'bug' itself is about 10 degrees wide. Have the other pilot adjust it for the cross wind component, and then keep your heading within the confines of the 'bug' (+/- 5 degrees). If you can't make your corrections within that limit, you should go around and start over. Otherwise the tendency is to increase your bank with the intent of correcting faster...but resulting in an ever-increasing error. PIO. A raw data approach is very nearly an emergency!!
DOVE
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I state that I have never flown on the B777 and that as a raw data approach I mean the one with:
- Of course no A / P.
- No A / T
- No F / D
- No FPA
- No Track
Only Stick, Rudder, Throttles, HSI, ADI.
Almost 40 years ago we used to train on SE 210 performing simulated ILS Approaches to minima, with R1 instrument, and its omni bearing selected and locked in a position very different from the ILS inbound course. It was very challenging but effective to maintain manual piloting skills.
I agree almost totally sevenstrokeroll what he wrote in his post 7. I would just add a few things.
Quote:
even before starting the ILS, know the Following:
initial rate of descent is Approximately 5 times your groundspeed in knots ... 140 knots groundspeed Apch ... your initial 700 fpm descent rate ... make your calculation in advance. 600 to 700 fpm for most jets to start
End of Quote
Things to know before starting the approach:
Attitude and engines / engine (OEO) pre-fixing for each configuration / speed, to maintain in the various stages of the approach ...
Quote
Intercept localizer and make a good guess as to the heading required to maintain. Between the split scan your needles and the basic flight instruments ... do not chase the needles, try heading for the making refinements as you go
End of Quote
The drift is equal to the wind cross-component divided by the ground speed in NM / min.
So after capturing the LOC apply a first correction to the drift so calculated: if your GS is 140 kts = 2.3 nm / min and have a x-wind component of 10 knots, add about 4° to the right of your inbound course. Then you'll only make small corrections of no more than 5 degrees (the angle of bank should not exceed the amount of heading variation).
Quote
as the glideslope needle comes alive, configure the aircraft for landing That I know by the time you are ON glideslope, you are fully configured for landing and stable to your 600-TRIM 700fpm descent ... and the power in September.
End of Quote
We used to extend the landing gear when a dot and a half below the glide, landing flap when a dot below.
On glide the aircraft must be configured and at the prescribed speed, with attitude and thrust as precalculated.
Determine what is the exact attitude to maintain the glide slope and make small changes around that.
Do not chase LOC and GLIDE but anticipate their trends.
Maintaining a Sterile Cockpit.
Only standard call outs allowed.
”OUTER MARKER TIME ...” “CROSS CHECKED!”
APPROACHING MINIMA
MINIMA ... GO AROUND
Or: LAND
Fly Safe
DOVE
- Of course no A / P.
- No A / T
- No F / D
- No FPA
- No Track
Only Stick, Rudder, Throttles, HSI, ADI.
Almost 40 years ago we used to train on SE 210 performing simulated ILS Approaches to minima, with R1 instrument, and its omni bearing selected and locked in a position very different from the ILS inbound course. It was very challenging but effective to maintain manual piloting skills.
I agree almost totally sevenstrokeroll what he wrote in his post 7. I would just add a few things.
Quote:
even before starting the ILS, know the Following:
initial rate of descent is Approximately 5 times your groundspeed in knots ... 140 knots groundspeed Apch ... your initial 700 fpm descent rate ... make your calculation in advance. 600 to 700 fpm for most jets to start
End of Quote
Things to know before starting the approach:
Attitude and engines / engine (OEO) pre-fixing for each configuration / speed, to maintain in the various stages of the approach ...
Quote
Intercept localizer and make a good guess as to the heading required to maintain. Between the split scan your needles and the basic flight instruments ... do not chase the needles, try heading for the making refinements as you go
End of Quote
The drift is equal to the wind cross-component divided by the ground speed in NM / min.
So after capturing the LOC apply a first correction to the drift so calculated: if your GS is 140 kts = 2.3 nm / min and have a x-wind component of 10 knots, add about 4° to the right of your inbound course. Then you'll only make small corrections of no more than 5 degrees (the angle of bank should not exceed the amount of heading variation).
Quote
as the glideslope needle comes alive, configure the aircraft for landing That I know by the time you are ON glideslope, you are fully configured for landing and stable to your 600-TRIM 700fpm descent ... and the power in September.
End of Quote
We used to extend the landing gear when a dot and a half below the glide, landing flap when a dot below.
On glide the aircraft must be configured and at the prescribed speed, with attitude and thrust as precalculated.
Determine what is the exact attitude to maintain the glide slope and make small changes around that.
Do not chase LOC and GLIDE but anticipate their trends.
Maintaining a Sterile Cockpit.
Only standard call outs allowed.
”OUTER MARKER TIME ...” “CROSS CHECKED!”
APPROACHING MINIMA
MINIMA ... GO AROUND
Or: LAND
Fly Safe
DOVE
