FDP Pairing turnaround times
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FDP Pairing turnaround times
How does an operator determine what is a resonable turnaround time between sectors?
If I have a 5 sector day with an 11 hour duty period, how does an operator decide what is the turnaround time for planning purposes?
Sign on 08h00 depart 09h00
Sector 1 - 2:30
turnaround - x (could they make this 15mins? what is this time based on)
Sector 2 - 1:30
turnaround - x (could they make this 15mins? what is this time based on)
Sector 3 - 3:00
turnaround - x (could they make this 15mins? what is this time based on)
Sector 4 - 1:00
turnaround - x (could they make this 15mins? what is this time based on)
Sector 5 homebound - :30 (8h30 flying)
Sign off 19h00 = 30 mins after on blocks.
If I have a 5 sector day with an 11 hour duty period, how does an operator decide what is the turnaround time for planning purposes?
Sign on 08h00 depart 09h00
Sector 1 - 2:30
turnaround - x (could they make this 15mins? what is this time based on)
Sector 2 - 1:30
turnaround - x (could they make this 15mins? what is this time based on)
Sector 3 - 3:00
turnaround - x (could they make this 15mins? what is this time based on)
Sector 4 - 1:00
turnaround - x (could they make this 15mins? what is this time based on)
Sector 5 homebound - :30 (8h30 flying)
Sign off 19h00 = 30 mins after on blocks.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SA - don't know.
Some points:
FDP - under EUOPS, you have probably a 10:30 FDP (it's a bit 'woolly' on when the FDP ends.) That is a 'cushy' FDP (12hrs under EUOPS by any means). Heaven knows what the new rules will produce!
DUTY affects only rest before next duty.
Turn-round time is not really material since you remain on FDP.. It does of course potentially allow them to 'squeeze' in another sector BUT this lowers from 13 hours your available FDP. If turnround time is NOT enough for the operation, delay the flight. A few days of this will cause a re-think at HQ PROVIDED it is supportable. We have 'supposed' professional pilots posting here who would argue that 'inconveniencing' the company by so doing or not tankering is 'career threatening. Thank the Lord we still have some pilots who put safety before salary..
Some points:
FDP - under EUOPS, you have probably a 10:30 FDP (it's a bit 'woolly' on when the FDP ends.) That is a 'cushy' FDP (12hrs under EUOPS by any means). Heaven knows what the new rules will produce!
DUTY affects only rest before next duty.
Turn-round time is not really material since you remain on FDP.. It does of course potentially allow them to 'squeeze' in another sector BUT this lowers from 13 hours your available FDP. If turnround time is NOT enough for the operation, delay the flight. A few days of this will cause a re-think at HQ PROVIDED it is supportable. We have 'supposed' professional pilots posting here who would argue that 'inconveniencing' the company by so doing or not tankering is 'career threatening. Thank the Lord we still have some pilots who put safety before salary..
Turnaround times are undoubtedly manipulated by operators to make schedules fit particularly with regard to flight duty times. But it is a two edged sword. If the turnaround is not regularly achievable then it will cause problems elsewhere for example with slots etc. We had flights with 25 minute turnarounds that could be achieved, just! Equally we have other flights with 45 minute turnarounds which are almost impossible to achieve. So it depends.
In some cases with the benefit of hindsight yes. If the flights are fully loaded ethnic charters with associated cleaning and you need 16 tones of fuel, with so so handling you are going to struggle with 45 minutes. On the other hand city shuttles with bus boarding, self cleaning and fuel tankering can make 25 minutes very achievable. Some operators appear to pad the block times to compensate. But there are definitely rotations that after the magic three months need to be rescheduled.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by CPB
Are you saying that the turn arounds are unrealistic?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What I am asking is on what do operators base the turnaround times. in the example quoted 15 minutes is not realistic but it appears the operator has used a time to fit the flight into the FDP.
Now where and how does one (operator or pilot) determine what the minimum turnaround time is?
Now where and how does one (operator or pilot) determine what the minimum turnaround time is?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I still don't get it - you are so far inside EU FDP that having 30 min turnrounds would still leave you 'in hours'. Are your FDP limits so different? What is your FDP limit for 5 sectors reporting at 0800 local?
I think the answer to your 'question' is largely route 'knowledge and experience'.
I think the answer to your 'question' is largely route 'knowledge and experience'.
Last edited by BOAC; 14th Jun 2012 at 13:02.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No my 5 sector FDP starting at 08h00 is 11 hours. You cant plan to use discretion, so what stops an operator using unrealistic turnaround times to make sure a series of flights falls within a FDP?
Much like Capt Pit Bull has intimated.
I want to know are turnaround times based on "experience" and expectations or is there a law, or guideline as to what an operator must use?
Much like Capt Pit Bull has intimated.
I want to know are turnaround times based on "experience" and expectations or is there a law, or guideline as to what an operator must use?
Last edited by The Actuator; 14th Jun 2012 at 13:03.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The regulatory authority in the case of excessive discretion reports or the company accountants as schedules fall apart.
Back to your original Q - yes they could, but it would be impractical unless you were a small a/c with little or no refuelling, minimal ground services like pax boarding/deplaning/cleaning/baggage handling and a very slick performance/tech log system.
You are certainly being 'mysterious' here with quotes like
"in the example quoted 15 minutes is not realistic but it appears the operator has used a time to fit the flight into the FDP." of which there is no sign in your original post. Without more detailed information, I feel you will get nowhere with this thread.
Back to your original Q - yes they could, but it would be impractical unless you were a small a/c with little or no refuelling, minimal ground services like pax boarding/deplaning/cleaning/baggage handling and a very slick performance/tech log system.
You are certainly being 'mysterious' here with quotes like
"in the example quoted 15 minutes is not realistic but it appears the operator has used a time to fit the flight into the FDP." of which there is no sign in your original post. Without more detailed information, I feel you will get nowhere with this thread.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe I am not being clear, I have no intention of misleading or being devious. I am after information.
To pose it another way.
Lets presume I am an operator and I want to do a charter.
This flight has 5 sectors, the total flying time is 9 hours 30 minutes with a departure time of 08h45. How can I get this flight to fall within an 11 hour FDP.
The FDP starts at 07h45. By 18h45 my crew must have signed off. (11hours after sign on) with 9h 30 flying time and 4 turnarounds I cannot afford to plan for 30 minute turnarounds. what prevents me from planning 15 minute turnarounds even though I know they will not be achieved?
I cant make it clearer than that.
To pose it another way.
Lets presume I am an operator and I want to do a charter.
This flight has 5 sectors, the total flying time is 9 hours 30 minutes with a departure time of 08h45. How can I get this flight to fall within an 11 hour FDP.
The FDP starts at 07h45. By 18h45 my crew must have signed off. (11hours after sign on) with 9h 30 flying time and 4 turnarounds I cannot afford to plan for 30 minute turnarounds. what prevents me from planning 15 minute turnarounds even though I know they will not be achieved?
I cant make it clearer than that.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, still very strange - I cannot envisage anyone trying a 5 sector 9:30 CHARTER sequence into an 11hr FDP!
However, to answer your 'question' - basically
1) Any Pilots' Union if they choose
2) The regulator where it can be PROVEN that the flight will actually unavoidably run into discretion - that is against EU regs.
3) The crews by phoning HOTAC and saying 'Where's the hotel'?
Again, it all depends on the 'turn-round' which you have not specified. Yoiu could plan 20mins there for each. I have fuel tech-stopped a 737 out of Banjul in Faro and been off chox in less than 15mins, but it cannot be a regular event.
Firstly it was FARO who have always been excellent.
Secondly it was 'nil change of load' other than fuel for the load sheet
Thirdly we had everything 'ready' on the 3 hour+ sector into FAO. It was literally 'plug and go' - presumably implausible for your scenario.
However, to answer your 'question' - basically
1) Any Pilots' Union if they choose
2) The regulator where it can be PROVEN that the flight will actually unavoidably run into discretion - that is against EU regs.
3) The crews by phoning HOTAC and saying 'Where's the hotel'?
Again, it all depends on the 'turn-round' which you have not specified. Yoiu could plan 20mins there for each. I have fuel tech-stopped a 737 out of Banjul in Faro and been off chox in less than 15mins, but it cannot be a regular event.
Firstly it was FARO who have always been excellent.
Secondly it was 'nil change of load' other than fuel for the load sheet
Thirdly we had everything 'ready' on the 3 hour+ sector into FAO. It was literally 'plug and go' - presumably implausible for your scenario.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong. But the max scheduled FDP is 14 hours (twice within seven days). Subtract the 90 minutes for flying five sectors brings that down to 12:30. Deduct the reporting time of one hour and the total flight time of 9:30 and you have two hours for turnarounds. Which means 30 minutes per turnaround which can work out depending on passenger and aircraft type. Not a cushy day at work, but manageable.
In my company we have a minimum turnaround table which defines normal and minimum turnarounds depending on aircraft type and type of turnaround (domestic/domestic, international/international and so on). The company council has a say whenever that gets changed. For example the lowest minimum turnaround time for a B738 is 45 minutes. Therefore we couldn't fly the schedule outlined above with that type. Even those 45 minutes will be sometimes too short if cleaning and fueling is slow, incoming and outgoing load is full and boarding is done via jetway only. For example experience shows that we can't turn around a 738 in 50 minutes on any canary island, we need at least 55, usually 60 to 65 minutes for it.
In my company we have a minimum turnaround table which defines normal and minimum turnarounds depending on aircraft type and type of turnaround (domestic/domestic, international/international and so on). The company council has a say whenever that gets changed. For example the lowest minimum turnaround time for a B738 is 45 minutes. Therefore we couldn't fly the schedule outlined above with that type. Even those 45 minutes will be sometimes too short if cleaning and fueling is slow, incoming and outgoing load is full and boarding is done via jetway only. For example experience shows that we can't turn around a 738 in 50 minutes on any canary island, we need at least 55, usually 60 to 65 minutes for it.
The original poster says in his profile he lives in South Africa, maybe they have different rules? He also does not state the aircraft type. For the aircraft and rules that Denti, BOAC and I are familiar with the operator would have an hour's leeway, so no obvious reason to rush the turnarounds.
As I said before there are definitely situations where unrealistic turnarounds are planned. For a one off charter if I was the customer and wanted things to run to schedule I would ask for a bit more detail on how the operator intended to avoid delays. For example there are guidelines on how long passengers need to board and of course disembark. There is obviously a difference in time required say between charter flights with lots of families and city shuttles with lots of frequent flyers.
Can the original poster give us a bit more detail, like aircraft type, number and type of passengers and some idea of why 11 hours is so important? It is potentially an interesting topic. But at the moment there is not enough data to really understand the question.
As I said before there are definitely situations where unrealistic turnarounds are planned. For a one off charter if I was the customer and wanted things to run to schedule I would ask for a bit more detail on how the operator intended to avoid delays. For example there are guidelines on how long passengers need to board and of course disembark. There is obviously a difference in time required say between charter flights with lots of families and city shuttles with lots of frequent flyers.
Can the original poster give us a bit more detail, like aircraft type, number and type of passengers and some idea of why 11 hours is so important? It is potentially an interesting topic. But at the moment there is not enough data to really understand the question.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am starting to think I AM STUPID.
This is a simple question.....on what guidelines or by whose rules are the times for turnarounds determinded in order to keep FDP's honest?
I have stated the FDP is 11 hours with 5 sectors. That is the max, where it is is irrelevant under what laws or governing agency is irrelevant, what type of ops are required is irrellevant.
Type is irrelevant but lets say it is a Global. Lets further say we want to drop off 1 pax and pick up 1 pax at each destination, refuel on one of the turnarounds and clear customs on another......none of this is relevant but I want to know on what do I base the turnaround times if I am the operator and I want the flight to be planned legally?
It is not odd. If it was Ryan Air planning a two sector day and the FDP was 13hours 15 mins, (i dont know if that is the legal FDP or not but it does not matter) if the FDP is 13hrs 15 mins and they have a two sector day with 2 x 6 hour sectors can they plan a 15 minute turnaround, given that they must sign on one hour before and sign off 30 minutes after in order to keep the PLANNED FDP in limits at 13hrs 15 minutes.
Again, irrespective of further schedules, pax complaints pilots complaints, etc etc etc on what basis is an operator to determine what turnaround times he may use for planning before running afoul of the law?
If this is not clear, then I give up. Thank you for your time and responses.
This is a simple question.....on what guidelines or by whose rules are the times for turnarounds determinded in order to keep FDP's honest?
I have stated the FDP is 11 hours with 5 sectors. That is the max, where it is is irrelevant under what laws or governing agency is irrelevant, what type of ops are required is irrellevant.
Type is irrelevant but lets say it is a Global. Lets further say we want to drop off 1 pax and pick up 1 pax at each destination, refuel on one of the turnarounds and clear customs on another......none of this is relevant but I want to know on what do I base the turnaround times if I am the operator and I want the flight to be planned legally?
It is not odd. If it was Ryan Air planning a two sector day and the FDP was 13hours 15 mins, (i dont know if that is the legal FDP or not but it does not matter) if the FDP is 13hrs 15 mins and they have a two sector day with 2 x 6 hour sectors can they plan a 15 minute turnaround, given that they must sign on one hour before and sign off 30 minutes after in order to keep the PLANNED FDP in limits at 13hrs 15 minutes.
Again, irrespective of further schedules, pax complaints pilots complaints, etc etc etc on what basis is an operator to determine what turnaround times he may use for planning before running afoul of the law?
If this is not clear, then I give up. Thank you for your time and responses.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a simple question.....on what guidelines or by whose rules are the times for turnarounds determinded in order to keep FDP's honest?
Now, "sign off 30 minutes after in order to keep the PLANNED FDP" has no relevance for FDP That is based either on chox or chox + 10 normally.
The 'Ryanair' you quote would, I suspect, be flagged early by either the union or pilots themselves as impractical, with regulatory oversight. Again, read post #12.
none of this is relevant but I want to know on what do I base the turnaround times if I am the operator and I want the flight to be planned legally?
In the 'Global one on one off' case I would suggest 5 minutes would be acceptable - 1 engine running?
There is no 'legal minimum' I am aware of since every operation/sector will be different. Going to tell us any more? Believe me, we are all trying to help!
Start by telling us a bit about YOU - pilot/crewing/ops/what?
Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rome
Posts: 792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Actuator,
As far as I know, there are no specific regulatory requirements that will impose you to have a minimum of "x" minutes of turn around time for your specific type involved in charter or line operations. You will establish as an operator these timings, include them in your ops manual and get it approved by your local Authority. Obviously unrealistic turn around times will be rejected as the Authority is there to grant safety which is also your major concern in order to start your operations with the right foot.
It is a mix of many factors together, as the above posters have already stated. Can you realistically turn around your airplane in 15 minutes, all factors considered ? The way you consider these factors is another question, and there is a lot to be added to the mix.
If they have considered it to be feasible and they got the approval from the Authority then, yes. But that depends on the way they are able to operate. If you want to try the same scenario and you are not able to cope with your scheduling you will end up having a very low index of regularity and punctuality, which will trigger the Authority to keep an eye on you and closely monitoring your ops until they will kindly ask you to modify your schedules.
The law will simply not allow you to get to that point as the Chapter 7 of your Ops manual related to FDP will not be approved. The decision is simply based on the fact that you will not be able to provide evidence that you can turn around your airplane in the time you have specified.
I hope it helps for your original question.
As far as I know, there are no specific regulatory requirements that will impose you to have a minimum of "x" minutes of turn around time for your specific type involved in charter or line operations. You will establish as an operator these timings, include them in your ops manual and get it approved by your local Authority. Obviously unrealistic turn around times will be rejected as the Authority is there to grant safety which is also your major concern in order to start your operations with the right foot.
This is a simple question.....on what guidelines or by whose rules are the times for turnarounds determinded in order to keep FDP's honest?
If it was Ryan Air planning a two sector day and the FDP was 13hours 15 mins, (i dont know if that is the legal FDP or not but it does not matter) if the FDP is 13hrs 15 mins and they have a two sector day with 2 x 6 hour sectors can they plan a 15 minute turnaround, given that they must sign on one hour before and sign off 30 minutes after in order to keep the PLANNED FDP in limits at 13hrs 15 minutes.
Again, irrespective of further schedules, pax complaints pilots complaints, etc etc etc on what basis is an operator to determine what turnaround times he may use for planning before running afoul of the law?
I hope it helps for your original question.