Sideslip in Cruise - Jets
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From: Philadelphia PA
Sideslip in Cruise - Jets
I've often wondered if there is a way to know if a small amount of sideslip is present in the cruise on jet aircraft.
Given that the ball appears to be the only way to know, and it's not particularly sensitive at very small angles, is there some other way that a crew would know if they had a small amount of sideslip on the airplane?
Given that the ball appears to be the only way to know, and it's not particularly sensitive at very small angles, is there some other way that a crew would know if they had a small amount of sideslip on the airplane?
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From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
A US$13,683.32 optional kit from Boeing (and equivalent price for Airbus). Quite a bargain - you can choose the colour and it even comes with a precision cut flexible bond attachment device**
*Piece of sticky tape
*Piece of sticky tape
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From: Seattle
A swept wing airplane in a sideslip will tend to require non-zero roll trim to keep from rolling. The need to insert roll trim would be an indication of sideslip. Procedure to minimize drag is to insert rudder trim as needed to zero out roll trim.
A difference between heading and track angles as displayed on the PFD would be an indication of sideslip in the absence of any crosswind.
The need to hold non-zero bank angle in order to fly a constant heading is also and indication of sideslip. Wings level plus sideslip yields a flat turn (i.e., heading will be changing).
A difference between heading and track angles as displayed on the PFD would be an indication of sideslip in the absence of any crosswind.
The need to hold non-zero bank angle in order to fly a constant heading is also and indication of sideslip. Wings level plus sideslip yields a flat turn (i.e., heading will be changing).
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From: Philadelphia PA
The issue is that in a twin engine jet (for simplicity), it's unlikely that the two engines would be producing exactly the same amount of thrust at the same N1 or EPR.
Some aerodynamic surface(s) would thus have to be deployed to keep the sideforce zero, which would mean extra drag.
How does sideslip get measured (the yaw string is a good idea, but needs to be lit at night...), and what can be done to ensure minimum drag?
Some aerodynamic surface(s) would thus have to be deployed to keep the sideforce zero, which would mean extra drag.
How does sideslip get measured (the yaw string is a good idea, but needs to be lit at night...), and what can be done to ensure minimum drag?
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From: Grobelling through the murk to the sunshine above.
it's unlikely that the two engines would be producing exactly the same amount of thrust at the same N1 or EPR
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From: fl
Had a captain that insisted on flying in a side slip on a 737 200 to keep the ball centered. It drove me crazy so I used my screw driver to re align the ball so it was centered when the wings were level when he wasn't looking. If the wings are level on course you should have a centered ball. Just don't tell him what you did.
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From: Philadelphia PA
Having matched EGT (or N1 or EPR or any other parameter) does not mean you'll have matched thrust.
And having no lateral acceleration does not mean there is no sideslip. (Helicopters have inherent sideslip with the ball centered).
And having no lateral acceleration does not mean there is no sideslip. (Helicopters have inherent sideslip with the ball centered).
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From: flyover country USA
Pub User:
Having worked engine performance issues for over 35 years, I find this a truly amazing statement.
Typically pilots will choose to match N1's in order to reduce airframe vibration (this may be more true with tail-mounted engines), and this tends to equalize thrusts. But to expect matched EGT's is hardly reasonable.
(Besides, I never realized Mr Boeing made his own engines...)
Mr Boeing's machines very commonly have the same EGT, to the nearest single degree, so I imagine the thrust is fairly close to equal too.
Typically pilots will choose to match N1's in order to reduce airframe vibration (this may be more true with tail-mounted engines), and this tends to equalize thrusts. But to expect matched EGT's is hardly reasonable.
(Besides, I never realized Mr Boeing made his own engines...)
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From: various places .....
i would like to know the hidden side slip that my instruments can not detect.
Unless you have a vane (or the poor man's alternative - a yaw string) you will only be able to make some nominal and approximate inferences regarding sideslip - significant sideslip is easy - but when you get to small angles, pilot assessment is going to tend towards imagination.
The Concorde folk, on the other hand, had it all laid out before them ...
Unless you have a vane (or the poor man's alternative - a yaw string) you will only be able to make some nominal and approximate inferences regarding sideslip - significant sideslip is easy - but when you get to small angles, pilot assessment is going to tend towards imagination.
The Concorde folk, on the other hand, had it all laid out before them ...
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From: I wouldn't know.
The A380 has three vanes right in front of the flight deck on top of the nose which should be able to measure sideslip. No idea if it is indicated.
The skid/slip indicator on modern PFDs however is pretty sensitive, but alas has no scale to show degrees of sideslip. In normal cruise with a correctly rigged airplane there is no indicated sideslip and no control surface deflection. While thrust is not directly displayed (again, it is in the A380) the electronics are there to know and set it regardless and therefore equal thrust is nowadays a reality as well.
A yaw string of course is quite nice and extremely accurate. Having flown with strings but without engines it was a direct performance instrument and and became second nature to keep centered in those, hmm, 15 or 20 years i used it.
The skid/slip indicator on modern PFDs however is pretty sensitive, but alas has no scale to show degrees of sideslip. In normal cruise with a correctly rigged airplane there is no indicated sideslip and no control surface deflection. While thrust is not directly displayed (again, it is in the A380) the electronics are there to know and set it regardless and therefore equal thrust is nowadays a reality as well.
A yaw string of course is quite nice and extremely accurate. Having flown with strings but without engines it was a direct performance instrument and and became second nature to keep centered in those, hmm, 15 or 20 years i used it.
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From: Never sure
I am afraid to ask, but what does a 'Yaw string' look like? Is it like a plumb line? And what would I be looking for? I can see that if the aircraft was banked the line would be off centre, but would there be a displacement if there were yaw? I suppose there would be if the IRS is sensing it, and displaying it on the PDU.
I always have to trim left rudder as I accelerate, and there it remains for the flight, but it needs to be reduced in the descent eventhough speed is still high. So am I experiencing asymmetric thrust? FADEC controlled engines, N1 matched. Pretty new airframe too.
I always have to trim left rudder as I accelerate, and there it remains for the flight, but it needs to be reduced in the descent eventhough speed is still high. So am I experiencing asymmetric thrust? FADEC controlled engines, N1 matched. Pretty new airframe too.
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From: Tring, UK
...what does a 'Yaw string' look like?
Is it like a plumb line?
And what would I be looking for? I can see that if the aircraft was banked the line would be off centre, but would there be a displacement if there were yaw?
On the 777 I bring up the flight control synoptic and see if there is any bias in the roll controls, e.g. consistently more 'up' on one side than the other, then tweak the rudder trim until the control surfaces are neutral (in smooth air) or averaging around neutral (turbulent). This should produce the least drag configuration.
This is with the autopilot in and not too close to a waypoint, so the aeroplane is trying to fly straight to start with.
I'd prefer a yawstring but Boeing don't fit them, for some reason. Maybe transonic wool is hard to come by?
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From: Home soon
This is with the autopilot in and not too close to a waypoint, so the aeroplane is trying to fly straight to start with.
Thanks JT.
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From: ITALY
FCeng84
A difference between heading and track angles as displayed on the PFD would be an indication of sideslip in the absence of any crosswind
… not at all ! ! ! When a symmetric a/c is flying with a correctly installed sideslip indicator , and zero bank angle , the difference between track and heading is only the wind correction angle ! no reference to sideslip at all ( which is zero) !
You can see this during an approach to landing with strong side wind component : if you approach with a sideslip, your sideslip indicator will show , obviously, off-centre,(though track and heading will be the same), but if you approach with a crab angle (zero roll angle), track and heading will be different , but no sideslip at all. Just change the phase of flight from ‘approach to landing’ to ‘cruise’ and you will surely better figure this .
D
… not at all ! ! ! When a symmetric a/c is flying with a correctly installed sideslip indicator , and zero bank angle , the difference between track and heading is only the wind correction angle ! no reference to sideslip at all ( which is zero) !
You can see this during an approach to landing with strong side wind component : if you approach with a sideslip, your sideslip indicator will show , obviously, off-centre,(though track and heading will be the same), but if you approach with a crab angle (zero roll angle), track and heading will be different , but no sideslip at all. Just change the phase of flight from ‘approach to landing’ to ‘cruise’ and you will surely better figure this .
D
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From: Between a rock and a hard place
When a symmetric a/c is flying with a correctly installed sideslip indicator , and zero bank angle , the difference between track and heading is only the wind correction angle ! no reference to sideslip at all ( which is zero) !
You can see this during an approach to landing with strong side wind component : if you approach with a sideslip, your sideslip indicator will show , obviously, off-centre,(though track and heading will be the same)
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From: Tring, UK
....and this is why the Boeing recommended method (fctm i believe)to do so is using the heading select mode for 30 secs then trim ...
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From: ITALY
172 Driver
<<wings level with an engine failure you..>>
This configuration is not what I consider for ‘symmetric aircraft’
<<.. obviously, off-centre,(though track and heading will be the same )>>
You are right, I intended ‘track and heading will be constant’, meaning
‘ aircraft not turning’ .
D