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Airbus trepidation... convince me otherwise!

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Airbus trepidation... convince me otherwise!

Old 10th Jan 2012, 06:44
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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You can design an aircraft where you push the stick forward to go up and pull the stick back to go down and providing sufficient training is done everything will be OK.
As you know well, A designed flick switches aft for "on" and forward for "off" (meaning "I have it" and "shove it" respectively) which is the opposite of the traditional B style of forward for "on". Then you have the option of turning the A switches the other way round like the Bs for those who like the B-style switching. Convenient.
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Old 10th Jan 2012, 08:49
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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While this is ultimately true it does have practical limitations. You can design an aircraft where you push the stick forward to go up and pull the stick back to go down and providing sufficient training is done everything will be ...
That would likely result in a lot of accidents in an extraordinary situation where there was a need for a quick maneuver, as no amount of training would counter the muscle memory of pilots. The brain has practically wired "pull back" as up and "push forward" as down, in everyone, any kid with a flight sim or a computer, anyone who has watched pilots on tv, or any pilot, just as the brain has wired the way your other fingers and thumb sit when pointing with your index finger. It would be practically like taking a steering wheel and making the vehicle turn left when the wheel is pulled to the right.

As for the switches, pushing them up or forward could means go, back could mean stop. I don't see the logic of I have it/I dont have it.
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Old 10th Jan 2012, 08:55
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Nonsense abounds....

Feel free to substitute another eight-letter word for 'nonsense'.

Here's what Airbus has to say....and, I agree:

1. The aircraft can be flown like any other aircraft;
2. Fly, Navigate, Communicate, and Manage;
3. Respect task sharing, and back each other up;
4. Know your FMA at all times;
5. Cross the accuracy of the Flight Management System with raw data;
6. One head up at all times;
7. When things don't go as expected, take over;
8. Use the proper level of automation for the task.


Duh!!!!! Basic airmanship....

My commentary:

1. The aircraft is a beautiful-flying aircraft. It's balanced,
dynamically well-designed;
2. Fly, Navigate, Communicate, Manage. This has been taught in
basic flight training for maybe a century;
3. Respect task sharing. One of the principle tenants of CRM;
4. Know your FMA at all times. OK, so you ask, "What the hell is
it doing now?" Well, just look at your FMA....your question is answered
for you;
5. Crosscheck the accuracy of your FMS. Do you know where you are,
right now? Duh!
6. One head up at all times. Or, is someone paying attention to
the store?
7. Oh! Things are going badly! Perhaps, I should take over!
Again....Duh!!!!
8. Use the level of automation you want to use. You're the pilot.
You decide.


OK, so now you know the philosophy of the Airbus.....


Fly safe,


PantLoad
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Old 10th Jan 2012, 08:55
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Denti and Aterpster,


There is a 'Loc' button on the 757 / 767 but it is not Vor/ Loc.

It will track a Localizer


It will NOT track a radial.


You can, of course display any radial you would like and could track it yourself
using Hdg Sel but the Autopilot will not do it for you.


When tracking of a Radial is required you simply build the radial on the legs page and fly it in LNAV.


You can verify you are tracking it if you wish by tuning in the radial manually
which should superimpose it self on the LNAV course (visible on the Map display)
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Old 10th Jan 2012, 09:37
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Tracking a radial is best done in "track/fpa" imho.
wich is a great feature in the Bus. Being able to follow a precise trajectory through SPACE rather than a drifting airmass.
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Old 10th Jan 2012, 15:47
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pantload
Feel free to substitute another eight-letter word for 'nonsense'.

Here's what Airbus has to say....and, I agree:

1. The aircraft can be flown like any other aircraft;
2. Fly, Navigate, Communicate, and Manage;
3. Respect task sharing, and back each other up;
4. Know your FMA at all times;
5. Cross the accuracy of the Flight Management System with raw data;
6. One head up at all times;
7. When things don't go as expected, take over;
8. Use the proper level of automation for the task.
The aircraft can be flown like any other aircraft? Really?

Try trimming for 250 in a climb and get back to us on how it went.
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Old 10th Jan 2012, 21:19
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Simple turn flight directors off, select climb thrust and pull the nose up to an attitude to maintain 250kt in the climb aircraft will maintain and trim for you.

Simples.

Having flown both Boeing and Airbus then give me the Airbus everytime. Yes it's slightly more tricky in a crosswind but once you get the technique sorted it's fine. I see some people saying the Airbus is complicated when things go wrong, I found the Boeing more difficult because I always thought the design of the 737 flight deck was just one big mess and hated the QRH. However it can be difficult for someone who has flown as certain type of aircraft for 20 years and then suddenly have to change to a new type that has a different way of doing things.

It depends what you are use to, go with an open mind and I'm sure you will enjoy it. It will take a good year to start to feel comfortable, I have been on the Airbus now for 5 years and how I operate it is second nature to me and feels natural and I know what the aircraft is doing.

Everyone has their own opinion. Both companies make very fine aircraft.
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Old 10th Jan 2012, 21:39
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Simples
Really? It will maintain the speed? Or the pitch attitude?

... do you KNOW how it flies? Or do you put it on autopilot at 200' like everyone else who is afraid to admit it doesn't handle well manually?
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Old 10th Jan 2012, 23:14
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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It will maintain a 0g attitude, or a continuous trajectory through space, until low speed protection eventually comes into play if you wait long enough.

I've seen both sides and I prefer the bus, despite what most people think/say the aircraft is a joy to hand fly once you get used to the augmentation and ECAM does beat having to fish for the wrong checklist in the dark once you accept it.
If you approach the training with an open mind and accept that everything you know is not necessarily applicable anymore you should be fine...

S.
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 01:05
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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stilton:
There is a 'Loc' button on the 757 / 767 but it is not Vor/ Loc.
...
When tracking of a Radial is required you simply build the radial on the legs page and fly it in LNAV.
If you are instructed to fly a radial outbound, is that possible to build that in the 757/767 FMC?

Not possible in the 737 (unless you put in an arbitrary distance, which will lead to route discontinuity and "using reserve fuel" FMC warnings and so on), we do have VOR tracking capability though.
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 01:36
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Fakawi, search in youtube for children of magenta, good video for pilot haters.

I also suggest the af447 thread, many engineers dressed as pilots in that thread, you sure will like it.
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 03:59
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stone Cold II
Simple turn flight directors off, select climb thrust and pull the nose up to an attitude to maintain 250kt in the climb aircraft will maintain and trim for you.

Simples.
........................

It depends what you are use to, go with an open mind and I'm sure you will enjoy it. It will take a good year to start to feel comfortable, I have been on the Airbus now for 5 years and how I operate it is second nature to me and feels natural and I know what the aircraft is doing.

Everyone has their own opinion. Both companies make very fine aircraft.
Stone, the 320 series does NOT trim for speed. Read your manual. Fact, not opinion.
Babotika has it correct, BTW, I actually like the bus, but I don't completely trust her.
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 06:09
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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On the 75/ 67 You can build a radial outbound on the legs page with an arbitrary distance if instructed to do so it will track in Lnav.


It will affect your fuel planning but since this is only a temporary clearance it does not matter, if it will rejoin your route further downline and if cleared to do so you can close up the discontinuities and then your fuel estimates will be accurate.
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 07:52
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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I don't know, I'm stupid, I really don't know how to fly...

Well, I'm retired, so I can't 'try' holding the speed at 250, or whatever.

I flew Boeings for almost 23 years before I did the Bus for nine years.
Boeing makes a damn good aeroplane, there is no question. I loved the 737, especially. It's really my sweetheart. That's one of the best hand-flying planes I've ever flown....and I've flown over 30 different planes in my career.

But, the Bus is a great aircraft. It's really advanced. It's a well-designed airplane, aerodynamically...very honest....no surprises aerodynamically.

If you want to make it fly like a hand-flown 737, turn off a bunch of sXXt, go into direct law, and fly your heart out. (Only kidding)

It really does fly like any other aircraft. Really.... In my opinion, which is worth nothing, the training is a problem area. We train to learn all the
'trick-sXXt' stuff the Bus will do, and we do little actually pilot-flying stuff. Try hand-flying as much as possible...AThr OFF....you can use the bird if you like...or not.....but, be a pilot and hand fly. You'll get to where you really enjoy the stability and honesty of the Bus.

You really don't need all that trick-sXXt stuff to fly the thing....it's just an airplane, and a really well-designed one, to boot. Use as much automation as you like....or,as little as you like. It, too, is a sweet machine.

Fly safe,

PantLoad
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 08:52
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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I see what you mean by trim for a specific speed but why would you need to? Select speed that you want select attitude that you want and it will hold it fact.

I always at least take all the automatics out once during my working week to help keep some sort of scan up. It will fly like any other plane apart from manual trim and anybody who says it doesn't does not know what they are talking about.
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 09:18
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Stone Cold II,

Select speed that you want select attitude that you want and it will hold it fact.
You are simply using autothrust to try to control speed.

Most of us will climb using a constant climb power setting. A Boeing can be trimmed for speed - an Airbus can NOT. Airbus will hold a constant pitch attitude and the stab will be autotrimmed to follow the subsequent speed changes. It is completely different in longitudinal speed stability - just as the crew of AF 447 discovered.

Last edited by rudderrudderrat; 11th Jan 2012 at 10:56. Reason: typo
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 12:12
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Ta ridderrudderrat, that exactly what I meant. Auto thrust would control your speed at the pitch attitude you selected and naturally if the pitch was too great the speed would reduce until flight control laws would kick in.

As I have said everyone will have their own opinion on what they prefer. Some like Airbus more and some prefer Boeing. Myself I prefer the Airbus however think the 737 was better in a crosswind but for me day to day operation Airbus wins hands down.

But I will fly what ever it is as long as I get a pay cheque at the end of the day.
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 12:34
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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stonecold,

that last line said it all.
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 12:50
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Great watching dlcmdrx.
Not Airbus promoted ... I would guess.

Children of Magenta :

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Old 11th Jan 2012, 15:36
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Great watching dlcmdrx.
Not Airbus promoted ... I would guess.
I agree, it is a great watch.

However: He is referring to a lot of examples flying Boeing aircraft, so this is not a genuine Airbus problem, but rather applies to all modern flight deck designs ... I would guess.
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