Circling MDA with crane in vicinity

[172_driver]

This one is probably for aterpster or FlightPathOBN.

Was flying into KTOA (Torrence) in L.A. the other day, ILS RWY 29R with ceiling around 1000 ft and easterly wind so it was a circle to RWY 11L. No NOTAM:s for the aerodrome but ATIS reported a crane 400 ft AGL half a mile something north of the field. The circle MDH is just 517 ft according to this plate

When I became visual and saw the crane, it really was tall. And close to the runway, circled outside of the crane. No idea if it was lit, still daylight. So my question is, shouldn't this crane affect the circling MDA? Very common to see FDC NOTAM:s with raised minimums due to temporary cranes. Why wasn't this one mentioned? Seemed like a quite a hazard to me.

Any ideas?

[BOAC]

While waiting for the experts I would expect 700 (803) under TERPS. Sounds exciting!

[aterpster]

Two possibilities:

1. The crane is more than 1.5 nautical miles from any part of Runway 29R/11L. (Keep in mind this airport has CAT A/B only circling minimums).

or,

2. The crane wasn't reported to the procedures department in OKC. This is not likely at an airport with a control tower but it has happened.

[BOAC]

Not all they fouled up! There should be a difference of 40' between the two Altimeters for LOC and circle, or the original plate was wrong? Incidentally, why a different 'difference' for ILS, and LOC/Circle - 24'/40'?

[aterpster]

I just called the KTOA ATIS. They state the crane is within 1/4 mile of the runway. So, I sent an email to my procedures pals in OKC. But, they all have already probably flown the coop for the holiday.

[172_driver]

Thanks, would be interesting to hear if they've heard about the crane.

[aterpster]

172 driver:

It has been escalated. But, being the day before Turkey Day, don't hold your breath for any fast action.

[aterpster]

They got the NOTAM out, but they fouled up the straight-in minimums:

!FDC 1/7164 TOA FI/T IAP ZAMPERINI FIELD, TORRANCE, CA. ILS OR LOC
RWY 29R, AMDT 2B... S-ILS 29R: DA 473/HAT 376 CATS A/B. VISIBILITY
CATS A/B 1. CIRCLING: MDA 840/HAA 737 CATS A/B. LOS ANGELES
ALTIMETER SETTING MINIMUMS: S-ILS 29R: DA 497/HAT 300. CIRCLING:
MDA 860/HAA 757 CATS A/B. TEMPORARY CRANE 480 MSL 798 FEET N OF
RWY 11L.

[172_driver]

Interesting order of posts now - why did BOAC's last reply bounce up to 4th place?

I've seen FDC NOTAM:s before which to me appeared 'fouled up', e.g. a circling MDA that was lower than the straight-in.

[aterpster]

172 Driver:

Often they cut corners to get them out. And, they don't have a lot of rocket scientists working there.

[FlightPathOBN]

Wow,

great work!

One would think that a crane operator, especially one that tall, would know how this all works....

(nothing shows up on OE-AAA in this one yet, so it was never submitted)

[aterpster]

FlightPathOBN:

One would think that a crane operator, especially one that tall, would know how this all works....

(nothing shows up on OE-AAA in this one yet, so it was never submitted)

He did. More than one entity in the FAA didn't.

2011 AWP 1569 OE

[FlightPathOBN]

That case states this is permanent construction for an additional antennae on an existing tower, not a temp crane, and while this filing is for the construction, I did not find a filing for the temp crane, or notification of start of construction.

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external...seID=138437415

[aterpster]

FlightPathOBN:

The FAA transposed the number. The crane is a 2011 determination for the company "Mr. Crane."


2011-AWP-1596-OE

[FlightPathOBN]

Looks like there is a displaced threshold here? In the FAA UDDF, the runway endpoint is surveyed, not the displaced threshold. In that case, the FAA software doesnt pick that up and the numbers are always wrong...

check out PSP, you get some really odd NOTAMS...

[aterpster]

FlightPathOBN:

Looks like there is a displaced threshold here? In the FAA UDDF, the runway endpoint is surveyed, not the displaced threshold. In that case, the FAA software doesnt pick that up and the numbers are always wrong...

check out PSP, you get some really odd NOTAMS...

This doesn't have anything to do with PSP and everything to do with a crane at KTOA. I gave you the correct OE for the crane the second time around. I don’t know what the FAA UDDF is, but he displaced thresholds for 11L/29R are most certainly in AeroNav Services official datasheet system:

RUNWAY Detail for KTOA

[FlightPathOBN]

11L |P|0592001|
|N|0592001|
| 334829.0026|-1182044.3965|1282715| 5001|150|0592001|
| 96.2| |0592001| only this is recognized as the runway datapoint
| 334825.6765|-1182039.3792| 541|0592001|
| 0| 83.0| |0592001|
| 541| 85.1| |0592001|
| 3487| 96.1| |0592001|
| 4461| 97.1| |0592001|
| 5001| 96.8| |0592001|

The UDDF is the dump of the FAA database. This is the same database that all of the FAA evaluation software uses. There is a significant problem, as the program lists the runway end as zero, not the threshold as zero. The datapoint is RW only, and this is the endpoint, there is no datapoint for displaced thresholds in the software. So when an evaluation is done, the obstacle surfaces are generated from the runway endpoint, not the displaced threshold.

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/AERO/uddf/WE...A/TOA__02B.F77



TOA has displaced thresholds, so when evaluated by the FAA OE-AAA software, will have a much different result, that if one uses the displaced threshold origins for evaluation.

This is also the reason why many of the procedure designs the FAA generates, and the data on the plates, just dont ever seem to add up.

I used PSP as an extreme example, as there is a 3000 foot displaced threshold, but if you look at NOTAMS, you will see that it shows the obstacle, as an example, 4300 feet from one runway, and 1000 feet from another, yet both thresholds are right next to each other.....

[aterpster]

FltPathOBN:

Those data look like the stuff OC charts used to be made of.

I don't much follow the OE process, but I can say with certainty that the terminal procedures design staff in OKC use IAPA for procedure design, which indeed have the displaced thresholds where they exist.

[aterpster]

FlightPathOBN:

What is the displaced threshold for 13R, for example, the actual DER of 31L is where assessment for departure obstacles commences.

[Thatsthewaytodoit]

The British Way of solving this problem!

REF:C5659/11 From: 2011-Nov-22 Tue 12:15 To: 2011-Dec-02 Fri 20:00 ICAOGNHBLACKPOOL DUE TO CRANE ACTIVITY MDA(H) FOR THE FLW IAP INCREASED AS FLW - LOC/DME RWY 28 440(412) SRA RTR 2NM RWY 28 590(562) NDB/DME RWY 28 520(492) NDB/RADAR RWY 28 560(532) SRA RTR 2NM RWY 10 WITH 4.5 PERCENT CLIMB GRADIENT 590(558) NDB/DME RWY 10 WITH 4.5 PERCENT CLIMB GRADIENT 520(488) NDB RWY10 WITH 4.5 PERCENT CLIMB GRADIENT 560(528) VM(C) OCA(H) UNAFFECTED CRANE CAN BE LOWERED AND NORMAL MDA(H) REINSTATED WITH 30 MIN NOTICE TO ATC.