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A320 - Raw Data Takeoff?

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A320 - Raw Data Takeoff?

Old 16th Sep 2011, 22:35
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Question A320 - Raw Data Takeoff?

Hi Everybody!

I try to remember the procedure how a correct raw data takeoff should be done on the A320. (no FDs, basic pitch flying while doing raw data navigation)

A colleague showed me a perfect straightforward way some years ago, unfortunately I can't neither remember all details nor who the genius was...
I think we did modify the climb speed in the PERF CLB page - perhaps to V2???

Anyhow turning both FDs leads to no V2 displayed on the PFD and to missing data of your set flex temperature.
Only turning off one FD (of PF in this case) results in keeping all data on the PFD but is against basic AB doctrine.

Has anybody an idea how it should be done and where I can find some reference about it?

Many thanks!

W.
Wireflyer is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2011, 08:16
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Set the speed bug to V2, flex, though not displayed on the PFD, will still be active and displayed on the E/W display. Setting FLX/MCT on the rwy - no FMA will appear (prepare yourself, because it looks strange), 100kts just as usual, V1/Vr from the FMGC, pitch up to 15 degrees (just like the loss of airspeed memory item), at thrust reduction, pitch to 10, set speed to 250, thrust back to CLB, F/S speeds - appropriate actions...
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 08:31
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FCOM 4.05.30 p5 "NO FLIGHT DIRECTOR TAKEOFF"
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 10:32
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If a takeoff is initiated without FDs, the system responds as follow:
There are no FD bars.

There is no A/THR arming.

There is no guidance available.

The target speed on the PFD is that selected on the FCU or is defaulted to ​100 kt.

Setting the thrust levers to the CL detent does not activate A/THR.

Note: Do not engage the autothrust prior to selecting a target speed on the FCU.



PROCEDURE

Establish initial climb of ​15

When reaching the thrust reduction altitude (THR RED ALT):
SELECT a climb speed.

SET the thrust levers to CL detent.

ACTIVATE the autothrust.

TURN ON the FDs (basic modes engage).

SELECT appropriate mode.

Failure of both FDs after the start of takeoff:

The FD bars disappear.

The FCU window displays the target speed, which synchronizes on V2, or the current speed (if it is higher).

The autothrust remains armed.

At thrust reduction altitude, LVRCLB flashes. If the pilot set the thrust levers to the CLB detent, the autothrust becomes active in selected SPD mode (no FDs selected).
If the current speed is greater than the target speed, the thrust decreases.

At acceleration altitude the target speed does not change, since it is selected.


Taken from FCOM/PRO/NOR/SRP/01FMS/TakeOff.

However if you are still using the "old" fcom i believe it's in FCOM 4.5.30

Hope it helps.
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 03:46
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You Airbus people are very scary. I find if you push the thrust levers forward, pull the stick back the houses get smaller.
By George is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2011, 06:39
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All that button pushing and configuring for a RAW-DATA takeoff? Jeez!

What By George said!
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 08:37
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A good pilot has to know his machine.

Airbus machines are harder to know than Boeing or other machines.

For a no FD take OFF in the 320 you have to bear in mind, above all, these two items:

1st- select V2 in the FCU
2nd- Never engage A/THR without first selecting a speed higher than actual

Also worth noting:

There is no need for raw data navigation. You can follow the green line in the ND and even ask a DIR TO to the PM.

FLEX take off still available, and you can check it as usual in the ECAM.

FMA blank means just that: no automation assisting you (including A/THR not armed). Don't forget if you have to level off at 3000 instead of being cleared to a higher level, as usual...

If you are going to reengage automation just after acceleration, do as in the procedure. If you prefer to enjoy a little bit more and wait until well stablished in the climb, then I suggest as follows:

1-ask for "FDs ON" (basic modes engage, but still without A/THR)
2-ask for AP ON (no more asking)
3-pull altitude for an OPEN CLB
4-arm A/THR (it will engage in THR CLB)
5-manage NAV (unless HDG is required)
6-manage speed (unless other speed is required)
7-thoroughly read the FMA (to find any forgotten item)

If a single chime or any other abnormal situation arises: reengage automation immediately. You can enjoy and practice another day.

I have flown quite a few 100% AP/FD A/THR OFF sectors and its as easy and fun as in any other airplane, specially if you don't forget the first two recommendations.
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 10:14
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If a single chime or any other abnormal situation arises: reengage automation immediately. You can enjoy and practice another day.
Doesn't that say it all? Wasn't it one of the recent 737 crashes where the captain was heard screaming on the CVR "engage the autopilot - engage the autopilot" as he was in a steep spiral dive in IMC and killed everyone aboard
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 10:53
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Easyjet have banned them on line unless used in accordance with the MEL.

No button pushing just set v2 in FCU hardly frightening....
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 12:09
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Question hand flying skills

Have lost respect for Easyjet hearing that they have banned the No FD takeoff.( except MEL )

Encouraging pilots not maintain hand flying skills.

I encourage guys to practise no FD takeoffs under the right conditions, as they get to know the airplane better.

Flying the No FD takeoff helps one maintain proficiency, raw data and basic skills.

Any resistance from the pilots ?
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 18:49
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It's not policy to practice failure modes with paying guests. Not my rules. Anyway take offs are the easy bit fd or no fd.
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Old 18th Sep 2011, 20:18
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As far as I know, I only states in the a320 course companion of easyjet that your are only allowed to do a No FD take off in accordance with MEL.

first the Course companion is not one of the official documents, and second I always wondering if they mean if you do it take the MEL and do it as it's written there or you can only do it if you have to do it by MEL?

Neon
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Old 19th Sep 2011, 14:57
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8.3.18 AOMA last couple of lines switching off systems or Using degraded modes for practice.

Last edited by Pizza Express; 19th Sep 2011 at 19:58. Reason: Typo
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 07:42
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If a single chime or any other abnormal situation arises: reengage automation immediately. You can enjoy and practice another day.
There is two ways of interpreting the above:

number 1:
Doesn't that say it all? Wasn't it one of the recent 737 crashes where the captain was heard screaming on the CVR "engage the autopilot - engage the autopilot" as he was in a steep spiral dive in IMC and killed everyone aboard
number 2:
If you are practicing a No FD take off, and then you have a single chime with a "AIR ENG BLEED ABNORNM PR" or "FLT CTL SLATS FAULT" caution, or if there is significant engine vibration, or if there is a mess with the communications, wrong frequencies, or something with a possibility of loss of separation, or many other possible situations where it is better to make full use of automation while relieving PF's (and PM's) brain so that the team's situational awareness is optimal and becomes more efficient for managing the situation...
In this cases, reengage the bloody AP/FD and A/THR.

I meant number 2, it goes without saying
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 09:44
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I hope I am never in the back if the pilots are concerned with anything being discussed in this thread. Automation helps relieve the work load and is totally unneccesary for safe normal flight unless the pilots aren't safe and rely on them. How did they get the job if they are?
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Old 21st Sep 2011, 15:53
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A good pilot has to know his machine.

Airbus machines are harder to know than Boeing or other machines.

For a no FD take OFF in the 320 you have to bear in mind, above all, these two items:

1st- select V2 in the FCU
2nd- Never engage A/THR without first selecting a speed higher than actual
for an operator who used a lot of 2 digit airbus 320 msn's in the early nineties and for whom most of the pilots transitioned from the boeing 737-200, there were a lot of early incidents of thrust going to idle immediately after takeoff because of not following above 2 items. after the crash and these incident, the fleet was grounded for 9 months or so.

so
Airbus machines are harder to know than Boeing or other machines.
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Old 22nd Sep 2011, 03:05
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You Airbus people are very scary.
You're right George. That's why questions like a simple raw
data TO on the frigging Airboos require reams and reams of
reply posts compared to a Boeing (which for the same damn
question would only need two or three). The A320 Config 3
post last year was a perfect example.

Emergencies -

When I do a raw datary I brief NO ACTION BELOW 400FT in an
emergency. AT 400ft we will turn on FD's, thereafter PNF to
carry out ECAM actions while I slowly reintroduce automation
tools (if there are any available depending on the problem(s))
and man the comms.
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Old 23rd Sep 2011, 11:07
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bubbers say

I hope I am never in the back if the pilots are concerned with anything being discussed in this thread.
How can that be? You disagree with everybody, no matter what they advocate?
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