Damascus STAR/APPROACH
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Damascus STAR/APPROACH
for those who have access to the damascus plates since i dont know how to post the charts here.
there doesnt seem to be a proper transition from the stars to the iaps since the course of the arrival leg that leads to the IAF differs in more than 30 degrees to the reversal procedure.
in the case of the ILS23R can i consider the DAL NDB as the IAF and the following leg as the initial approach segment?
in this case can i use the 90/120 degree for precision/non precision approach criteria for outbound intercept?
reason being.. there is no published hold or racetrack and on other charts there is a published hold but it also differs in more than 30deg to the outbound so its the same as intercepting from the arrival course.
I have thought of intercepting the outbound reversal leg above the msa to stay legal.
thanks you for taking the time to understand it. I'll appreciate all the input.
there doesnt seem to be a proper transition from the stars to the iaps since the course of the arrival leg that leads to the IAF differs in more than 30 degrees to the reversal procedure.
in the case of the ILS23R can i consider the DAL NDB as the IAF and the following leg as the initial approach segment?
in this case can i use the 90/120 degree for precision/non precision approach criteria for outbound intercept?
reason being.. there is no published hold or racetrack and on other charts there is a published hold but it also differs in more than 30deg to the outbound so its the same as intercepting from the arrival course.
I have thought of intercepting the outbound reversal leg above the msa to stay legal.
thanks you for taking the time to understand it. I'll appreciate all the input.
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Going via the DAL can lead to a loss of manouvering speed due to the turn and the altitude effect when turining onto the final approach. The safest way, although not as efficient is to proceed to the DAM VOR, do a hold entry to position for the outbound leg of the approach. Done this many times without problems, except that if you have a validated FMS approach it may not turn onto the LOC at the correct point in space and the glideslope will be already below you. Use a manually selected intercept heading onto the LOC so to keep below the glide.
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correct this is another option, although ATC always throws a curved ball at the last minute, and as i am being checked i want to stay on the legal side, although the design of the procedure is a bit dubious.
this is what im reading. but cant quite understand the base turn exemption.
3.3 FLIGHT PROCEDURES FOR
RACETRACK AND REVERSAL
PROCEDURES
3.3.1 Entry
3.3.1.1 Unless the procedure specifies particular
entry restrictions, reversal procedures shall be
entered from a track within ±30° of the outbound track
of the reversal procedure. However, for base turns,
where the ±30° direct entry sector does not include
the reciprocal of the inbound track, the entry sector is
expanded to include it.
how do i know that DAL is the beginning of a base turn, and not the beginning of tha intitial approach segment
this is what im reading. but cant quite understand the base turn exemption.
3.3 FLIGHT PROCEDURES FOR
RACETRACK AND REVERSAL
PROCEDURES
3.3.1 Entry
3.3.1.1 Unless the procedure specifies particular
entry restrictions, reversal procedures shall be
entered from a track within ±30° of the outbound track
of the reversal procedure. However, for base turns,
where the ±30° direct entry sector does not include
the reciprocal of the inbound track, the entry sector is
expanded to include it.
how do i know that DAL is the beginning of a base turn, and not the beginning of tha intitial approach segment
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If you wish plates posted let me know. It would help if you said which arrival you were expecting. Bear in mind you only have to lose 1000' from the DAL to ILS intercept so I don't see any rush to descend?
- I'm afraid you have lost me there? Isn't that what throttles are for?
Originally Posted by JF
Going via the DAL can lead to a loss of manouvering speed due to the turn and the altitude effect when turining onto the final approach.
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You are going to have a hard time doing it completely standard.
If you fly to the VOR and join the holding, their ILS-1 procedure (R-038 to DAL NDB) is more than 30 degs off for the base turn as well (outbound course 097).
If you fly the ILS-2, and coming from Sofia point direct to DAL the course is 295. Outbound course 006 in the base turn.
Hence, you have the same problem in both cases. The benefit of the ILS-2 (besides being obviously shorter) is that the MSA is based on DAL NDB and the leg from Sofia is in the 5000 sector. So I would argue that before arriving at DAL, adjust the heading a little so that you are able to join the base turn inside the 30 degs.
If you fly to the VOR and join the holding, their ILS-1 procedure (R-038 to DAL NDB) is more than 30 degs off for the base turn as well (outbound course 097).
If you fly the ILS-2, and coming from Sofia point direct to DAL the course is 295. Outbound course 006 in the base turn.
Hence, you have the same problem in both cases. The benefit of the ILS-2 (besides being obviously shorter) is that the MSA is based on DAL NDB and the leg from Sofia is in the 5000 sector. So I would argue that before arriving at DAL, adjust the heading a little so that you are able to join the base turn inside the 30 degs.
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BOAC - my outfit has in the past had speeds back at VLS on the approach via the DAL on the base turn due to inappropriate configuration, with a low selected speed. The effects of TAS on turning radius approaching a 2000ft AMSL airport having not been fully considered.
The ILS/DME + VOR 23R is what we recommend guys to fly as it positions the aircraft correctly with no issues, and in a controlled manner, just the need for sensible selection of the speeds to ensure that turning radii are maintained. Fly to the DAM VOR, fly the hold entry and then fly outbound on the procedure next time over the DAM.
The ILS/DME + VOR 23R is what we recommend guys to fly as it positions the aircraft correctly with no issues, and in a controlled manner, just the need for sensible selection of the speeds to ensure that turning radii are maintained. Fly to the DAM VOR, fly the hold entry and then fly outbound on the procedure next time over the DAM.
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my outfit has in the past had speeds back at VLS on the approach via the DAL on the base turn due to inappropriate configuration, with a low selected speed.
Back to MD - I would HOPE your company simply wishes to see an intelligent, safe, practical and efficient solution.
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You may be in a check, but the ATC will not.
If you come via SOFIA and they offer ILS 2? DAL base turn procedure, take it and do not make any holding. Just anticipate the turn to be established in the outbound nicely. Don descend till established, which is no problem because you have plenty of miles to achieve final altitude. You should be at minimum clean or with first flap slat configuration before reachin DAL, though. That is what they expect.
If you are directed via DAM ATC should tell you if you are to make a hold. If they don't mention, ask them. Don't have doubts during a check. Request doing it if you are high, which often occurs.
Sometimes there is a lot of traffic in OSDI (a few traffics is a lot for them because it is conventional control, although they can see you with a radar). May be you have to hold over DAM to allow for a departure.
In OSDI you never know, with the ATC.
break a leg!
If you come via SOFIA and they offer ILS 2? DAL base turn procedure, take it and do not make any holding. Just anticipate the turn to be established in the outbound nicely. Don descend till established, which is no problem because you have plenty of miles to achieve final altitude. You should be at minimum clean or with first flap slat configuration before reachin DAL, though. That is what they expect.
If you are directed via DAM ATC should tell you if you are to make a hold. If they don't mention, ask them. Don't have doubts during a check. Request doing it if you are high, which often occurs.
Sometimes there is a lot of traffic in OSDI (a few traffics is a lot for them because it is conventional control, although they can see you with a radar). May be you have to hold over DAM to allow for a departure.
In OSDI you never know, with the ATC.
break a leg!
