AF447 wreckage found
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Just to add to DozyWannabe's comments, the nonsense is further compounded by the data in an earlier interim report showing many other cases of A330s and A340s encountering precisely the same circumstances - two of them in the same week as AF447 - but never making it to the front page.
Why? My guess is that the crews handled the aircraft with the required bit of professional respect and care, and it responded without any problems.
Why? My guess is that the crews handled the aircraft with the required bit of professional respect and care, and it responded without any problems.
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Hi,
Maybe the AF447 crew are not in this group
Unfortunately they can't more report .. but they let us a testimony with the CVR
however a lot of pilots have no issue whatsoever with it.
Unfortunately they can't more report .. but they let us a testimony with the CVR
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Would not a relatively simple and I believe inexpensive AOA indicator have helped these poor pilots.
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Petercwelch
There was no AOA indicator on the AF A330. I'm not sure whether it is an option. The BEA's latest report recommends that the reg. authorities study the case for making it mandatory.
On one hand it would be hard to be against it, given that during the final four minutes none of the three pilots recognised they were stalled, not even talking about it as a possibility.
On the other hand, for most of the way down it was AOA that was setting off the stall warning. Presumably they didn't think that was reliable.
On one hand it would be hard to be against it, given that during the final four minutes none of the three pilots recognised they were stalled, not even talking about it as a possibility.
On the other hand, for most of the way down it was AOA that was setting off the stall warning. Presumably they didn't think that was reliable.
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This wasn't just pilot error, this is a systemic problem affecting the airlines and the industry as a whole. PPLs start their ATPL training knowing how to recognise and recover from a stall - that this knowledge is not periodically revised and enforced is a sad indictment of the real issues that cost-cutting and poor corporate morale produce.
The underlying reality that Airbus (and Boeing for that matter) can't escape is this. In a matter of 30 seconds the PF managed to kill 200+ people and cost the people of France hundreds of millions of dollars. That French crew did more damage to France in blood and treasure than the recent riots in England did to the English. How could so few people do so much damage so fast. Paeans to pilot competence ring hallow. As a cultural matter in the Western world we expect technology to solve our problems. Right or wrong, good or bad, that is the expectation. And the person responsible for the technology and the hardware in the airline business is the manufacturer.
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How have thousands, nay, millions, of pilots flown their aircraft without AoA indicators....?
To me, it seems a red herring.
Thery're useful for carrier-based aircraft.
They were fitted on Concorde (a somewhat unusual aircraft configuration - and even there, they were on the side of the panel, not inside the primary scan).
Can anybody, and preferably a pilot, comment on the practical use of an AoA indicator ? How would you "fly" it ? How would you train for using it ? In particular during an unrecognised stall at F370 ?
To me, it seems a red herring.
Thery're useful for carrier-based aircraft.
They were fitted on Concorde (a somewhat unusual aircraft configuration - and even there, they were on the side of the panel, not inside the primary scan).
Can anybody, and preferably a pilot, comment on the practical use of an AoA indicator ? How would you "fly" it ? How would you train for using it ? In particular during an unrecognised stall at F370 ?
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Originally Posted by DozyWannabe
Double inputs *are* allowed by the system, but they are summed, meaning that in an emergency situation, the pilots can theoretically command twice normal pitch-and-roll rate in an emergency situation if they co-ordinate properly
There's no evidence that the PNF was unaware of the inputs being made because he told the PF to ease off several times
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Yes, a Red Herring. The 'AoA' is already in the cockpit. The Shaker, the pusher, the Horn, etc. Do what they say, or.....die.
Spend the money on BUSS. It's here, available, and it costs only money. The knock on BUSS is by the beanies, "It ruins the trip", Law disruption, etc. Only avaliable below xxx, etc. Point is, it is consistent with AB Philosophy. Buy it, Train it, and move on.
Spend the money on BUSS. It's here, available, and it costs only money. The knock on BUSS is by the beanies, "It ruins the trip", Law disruption, etc. Only avaliable below xxx, etc. Point is, it is consistent with AB Philosophy. Buy it, Train it, and move on.
ChristianJ: you don't fly an oil pressure gauge, but you need one nonetheless to tell you what's going on.
See also the AoA gauge, in an airliner's cockpit, a good cross check in certain situations so you know what's going on.
But Zorin made a decent point: with what looks to be a scan breakdown among two pilots, who would the AoA gauge have helped? Most likely the Captain in this case, as he entered and tried to suss out the problem.
See also the AoA gauge, in an airliner's cockpit, a good cross check in certain situations so you know what's going on.
But Zorin made a decent point: with what looks to be a scan breakdown among two pilots, who would the AoA gauge have helped? Most likely the Captain in this case, as he entered and tried to suss out the problem.
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I flew 76 different types of airplanes and the only one with an AOA gauge was the citation jet. It was fun to look at but didn't really do anything. Sure, put an AOA gauge in every airplane and see how safety improves. It works well for carrier landings otherwise just fly the F....n airplane, you don't need it. Honor stall warnings and if you ever get one in your career ask yourself how it happened. Then never do it again.
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Can anybody, and preferably a pilot, comment on the practical use of an AoA indicator ? How would you "fly" it ?
Conversely, if you want to slow to approach speed, you bring the needle/bar up out of green by reducing power and adding a bit of back stick or trim, then watch the needle/bar rise into the yellow band as you "pull it up."
AoAs are remarkable instruments, and I've always been amazed that they aren't more broadly used.
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AOA
I believe for technical reasons the stall warning was not continuously sounding despite the persistence of an aerodynamic stall. These guys did not recognize a stall IFR at night with lots of other alarms. AOA indicator might have alerted them to the fatal condition. It also might help avoid some stall spin accidents in small aircraft,not a rare cause of death.
Ive read the CVR transcript from the 3rd interim report and it opens up a lot of questions that I know you have been debating. I have one immediate question:
Is that the complete transcript as it says its an "Extract" so do we take that to mean that the transcripting of the CVR has not been completed?
As there seem to be many communication gaps and obvious things you would expect the crew to be discussing given stall warnings etc.
Is that the complete transcript as it says its an "Extract" so do we take that to mean that the transcripting of the CVR has not been completed?
As there seem to be many communication gaps and obvious things you would expect the crew to be discussing given stall warnings etc.
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Can anybody, and preferably a pilot, comment on the practical use of an AoA indicator ? How would you "fly" it ? How would you train for using it ? In particular during an unrecognised stall at F370 ?
We used it also for maneuvering limits, unusual attitude recovery (to avoid entering a spin) and it was always available as a backup to airspeed for lowering gear and flaps as well as setting a safe approach speed.
Now you guys flying airliners around do not plan on landing on aircraft carriers, but the maneuvering limits and unusual attitude recovery would have applied very well to AF447.
So next time a bird plugs up your pitot tube, what do you plan to do for an alternative?
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Yes, I guess occasionally AOA would be helpful with plugged pitot tubes but these guys couldn't have figured it out no matter what they had, they both panicked so couldn't fly the airplane. They needed the captain to sort it out for them because they couldn't. Kind of a sorry state for our new pilots who need someone to watch over them.