A320 Single Engine TOGA Selection

[Wingswinger]

To return to the thread:

but why would you ever want the Go Around mode during the Climb phase, if its all to do with phase ?

Observed in a simulator recently during an EFAV1 exercise:

After controlling the aircraft through the engine failure (without selecting TOGA) and before engaging AP the captain calls "Pull heading".

The co-pilot pulls altitude instead so the aircraft goes into OPEN CLIMB.

Suddenly no SRS and no V2 indication on PFD.

Captain engages AP, sets TOGA (SRS/GATRK) and pulls heading himself. Fixed.


Q.E.D.

[320 driver]

Wingswinger

You have hit the nail on the head. Its not really to do with phase.

You start a take-off and if you take TOGA during that take-off you dont get GA modes. If you end the take-off by selecting different vertical mode or by passing into climb phase (just a trigger condition) then the GA mode is available from then on.

[John Citizen]

Can anyone please quote any references in the manuals regarding this matter to support the other theories out there.

In theory, you should be able to read the manual, (also understand it and learn it) then fly the aircraft without discovering any new surprises

If do you discover any surprises (as a few of us did), you should be able to go back to manual and discover why.

I am not disagreeing with anyone but where does it say it in the manuals anything about the "phase" of flight.

Is this in some large yet to be published / secret Airbus manual

Although I suppose takeoff and climb whilst still in SRS is a phase of flight. If you will not get GO around mode until SRS is disengaged (as I said), therefore you could say you will not get GO around mode whilst still in the takeoff phase. Pretty much the same thing I suppose (disengage SRS after takeoff / outside the takeoff phase).

[Right Way Up]

320 Driver,

I am fairly sure that by going into OP CLB the takeoff phase ends and you are now in the CLIMB phase (albeit much earlier than usual). This would backup the claim that it phase related.

[TyroPicard]

John C
No big secret... Flight phases are listed in FCOM 4.02.20 .. p11. (Always takes me ages to find that page....)

There is no phase called "initial climb".

Switching from TO phase to CLB happens automatically at ACC ALT, or by engagement of another vertical mode before reaching ACC ALT. Selection of TOGA following EFTO does not change the vertical mode so the flight phase remains TO.

In that situation you want to remain in NAV or HDG, and not change to GA TRK.

you could say you will not get GO around mode whilst still in the takeoff phase

True - if you need TOGA for some reason during a FLEX T/O you do not want G/A TRK to engage.

[John Citizen]

John C
No big secret... Flight phases are listed in FCOM 4.02.20 .. p11.

Thanks for the reference. I just had a look but it still seems like a secret to me. Nowhere on this page does it say anything along the lines regarding the Go around mode and the fact that "it is inhibited/not available during the takeoff phase."

There is no phase called "initial climb".

I did not ever say there was.

I said "....during initial climb....still in climb phase".

I (and others here) use the word "initial" to specify that first small (initial) part of the climb phase that you enter and still have some flap out !

Even though it's all one phase, they way the aircraft will behave when selecting TOGA depends whether or not you have flaps out. This part of climb with flap out I refer to as the "intial climb" to further clarify what I mean, as this is the way you enter the climb phase.

[TyroPicard]

Hi John

Nowhere on this page does it say anything along the lines regarding the Go around mode and the fact that "it is inhibited/not available during the takeoff phase."

And nor should it - the page is about FMGS flight phases, not about AP/FD modes.

I did not ever say there was.

In that case I must have misunderstood this sentence...

Why does setting TOGA during the "initial climb" phase give you the Go Around if you are still in the "CLIMB phase".

I tend to be pedantic when using Airbus technical language and assume everyone else is trying to be as accurate...
You actually answered the query well in Post 3 but we seem to have got confused along the way ..
To check your understanding of "phases" and "modes" try this poser...

On base leg, flying level, FMA's say SPD ALT HDG, Flap 0, you activate the approach.
You then select TOGA.
1. What is the FMGS flight phase?
2. Will the FMA change, if so to what?

[flyer146]

Indeed, it is worth on a normal flight to observe the FMGS phase switching to start with.
If you select the PERF page, you will see the big title at the top of this page = FMGS phase. Certain logics and subsequent mode activation (as toga selection) are related to fmgs phase.

Now, more complex, same question as Tyro above post, but with flaps 1 ?
...here there is a trap or 2 answers possible I believe...

We can discuss it further after your posts.

Flyer146

[John Citizen]

TP, I apologise.

I actually did write "initial climb phase", but I also wrote

"initial climb" phase give you the Go Around if you are still in the "CLIMB phase".

What I meant to write was during the initial part of the climb phase.

On base leg, flying level, FMA's say SPD ALT HDG, Flap 0, you activate the approach.
You then select TOGA.
1. What is the FMGS flight phase?
2. Will the FMA change, if so to what?

1. Approach phase ?
2. MAN TOGA, (ALT HDG A/THR blue) ?

[flyer146]

1. Approach phase ?
2. MAN TOGA, (ALT HDG A/THR blue) ?

Yes, correct to me !

Now, this one :

Same question but you have FLAPS 1.
There is a trap here...

[John Citizen]

I believe :
"MAN TOGA, SRS, GA TRK, A/THR (blue)" ?

or could this also be possible ?

MAN TOGA, ALT, GA TRK (A/THR blue) ??????

[TyroPicard]

John C

No apology necessary!

1. Approach phase ?
2. MAN TOGA, (ALT HDG A/THR blue) ?

2 is correct - just the A/THR changes.

But..... FMGS flight phase will switch from APPROACH to GO-AROUND - see FCOM 4.02.20 p11 for "switching conditions to next phase" column.
So.. we have the AP/FD flying S&L but the FMGS in a go-around phase.

Conversely, in the "initial" part of the climb with FLAP lever still at 1 or more, selection of TOGA will put the AP/FD into SRS G/A TRK (a "common mode" i.e. both lateral and vertical modes - you always get both together) but the FMGS will remain in the CLIMB phase because the switching condition is "reaching cruise FL".

Simplze, no?

And flyer146 - back to ground school!

[flyer146]

2

is correct - just the A/THR changes.

But..... FMGS flight phase will switch from APPROACH to GO-AROUND - see FCOM 4.02.20 p11 for "switching conditions to next phase" column.
So.. we have the AP/FD flying S&L but the FMGS in a go-around phase.

Conversely, in the "initial" part of the climb with FLAP lever still at 1 or more, selection of TOGA will put the AP/FD into SRS G/A TRK (a "common mode" i.e. both lateral and vertical modes - you always get both together) but the FMGS will remain in the CLIMB phase because the switching condition is "reaching cruise FL".

Simplze, no?

And flyer146 - back to ground school!

oops indeed ! (ground school is CBT, so I won't learn much there )

But Tyro, you said : TOGA will put the AP/FD into SRS G/A TRK (a "common mode" i.e. both lateral and vertical modes - you always get both together).
not true during T/O phase ! So you don't ALWAYS get both together...

-Now another one :

1. APP phase activated, flaps at 0
2. Altitude selector set to a different altitude than actual one.
3. TOGA selection

FMA ? FMGS mode ?

-And another one :

4. APP phase activated, flaps at 1
5. Altitude selector set to a different altitude than actual one
6. TOGA selection below GA acceleration altitude
7. TOGA selection above GA acceleration altitude

FMA ? FMGS mode ?

[Bus Driver Man]

4. APP phase activated, flaps at 1
5. Altitude selector set to a different altitude than actual one
6. TOGA selection below GA acceleration altitude

Altitude selector will be set to a different altitude than the actual most of the time during approach. E.g. on the ILS with the G/A altitude selected.
I don't think the altitude selection has any influence on what FMA modes will engage.
IMO the standard MAN TOGA - SRS - GA TRACK

4. APP phase activated, flaps at 1
5. Altitude selector set to a different altitude than actual one
7. TOGA selection above GA acceleration altitude

I suppose the FMA will indicate the flashing LVR CLB immidiately after selecting TOGA.

[TyroPicard]

flyer146

not true during T/O phase ! So you don't ALWAYS get both together...

If you read the whole sentence you will see the FMGS is in CLIMB phase, not T/O. I was trying to illustrate to JohnC that the AP/FD and FMGS can appear to think along different lines....
And my "always" means that for any common AP/FD mode you always get both the relevant lateral and vertical modes together.
Unless JohnC has more questions... too much thread drift for me. G'day.

[Upper Air]

Auto "Off"

There is, there is mate, yu would normally, auto pilot off and autothrottle disengage, you would then have manual control, its two moves - but not one universal button yet. If you want to disengage the `brain` of the system giving you indications on the Primary Flight Display (PFD) just select FD (Flight Director) off, and then you can fly the aircraft raw - like a little aeroplane (weighing in at 60 tonnes or more).

All of the right hand column of the FMA will be blank.

[Upper Air]

Not in G/A because not in app

Very nice answer - you are getting there - stick with it. .

[jorel]

Been searching for an answer to a recent situation thought I was going to find it.... But flyer146 question went unanswered..


So could anyone confirm what the Fma will read after selecting Toga in the following conditions

F2
Gear down
V/s hdg... On the Fma and selected speed ( just lost the ils signal )
Approach phase activated
above the acceleration altitude
At 2000 ft on the approach.
Go around altitude set on the FCU

I wasn't expecting the Fma to read what it did.... So I'm thinking I must have done something else..

Any answers much appreciated

[Microburst2002]

the key is in the SRS mode

jorel
it will show MAN TOGA/SRS/GA TRK.
anyway I don't understand what does accel alt has to do during approach
perhaps you should rephrase the question?


Eveveryone else:
The key, as someone said before, is in the SRS mode:

there are two different SRS modes (with different guidance). One for take off, and one for GA.
The modes are related to flight phase because of the speed targets. In take off, the speed target is V2 plus 10 or pitch 17,5º. in GA, the target is VAPP or actual speed upon mode activation, which ever is greater.

Only during take off phase the target speed is V2 related. As long as you are in take off phase, SRS will always be take off SRS with V2 as the reference. Once you change phase, however, speed target changes and go around SRS will activate when levers advanced (when conditions are met) and the reference will be VAPP (if in approach phase) or actual speed.

[jorel]

Thanks microburst

In looking for my answer in FCOM's I came up with the following

Disengagement of SRS Mode happens as you pass through the accel alt (ref 1.22.30 p47)

If this is the case will SRS engage by selecting TOGA above accel alt (2 eng)

If what you say is correct, then the aircraft would remain in SRS until Alt* or alt cst or another vertical mode selected,or climb power selected,as acceleration altitude (2 engines case) condition would not be met.

Thanks for the clarification