Managing time critical checklists!

[A380 Jockey]

So many thanks guys, I can't do it enough.....!!!
Feels good to be endorsed by such a plethora of experienced airmen.
Thanks GC. Incidentally the ride in question was my own LR/Tri upgrade,being done by a snotty 'new school' Tre. Surprise surprise....I know what you're thinking. Yes,he's dating the boss's daughter....
Qe sera sera..

[Big Pistons Forever]

There is a great story of an age 59 1/2 Captain doing his final sim ride on the Crowd Killer before he retired. The TRE was a young hotshot and blew up one engine just as the captain was rotating. With the firebell blazing and all the bad red lights on the captain smoothly established the exact correct attitude while controlling yaw so that the aircraft heading never budged, with positive ROC established he called gear up and then leaned forward and started winding the clock on the panel. The attitude of heading never budged and after a few seconds of winding he calmly called for the engine failure/fire checklist.

The young checkpilot stopped the sim right there and demanded to what he was doing. The captains reply. "Son, nobody ever killed themselves winding the clock, but plenty of guys have killed themselves hurrying the emergency procedures ....."

[Sciolistes]

There is absolutely NOTHING that EVER needs to be done in a hurry in an aircraft.

Boeing QRH agrees with the exception of donning the mask and responding to a loss of thrust on both engines.

[A380 Jockey]

Even donning the mask gives u AT LEAST 5 secs of TUC. WHick is more than enough to don a quick donning new generation mask!
The "all engine failure" is a walk in the park, if at a resonably comfortable altitude. Even at Sully's low altitude it was handled so very calmly and collectively. I'm quite sure...nay quite certain, that the results would've been dramactically different had it been done otherwise.....

[Bergerie1]

Like the other old (but not bold) pilots who have posted here, I agree that you need to take your time and get it right. These were my golden rules (albeit on aircraft of an earlier age):-

1. Modern aircraft are easy to fly, they are very reliable and have good handling characteristics, therein lies the danger. It is all too easy to be unprepared for the rare occasions when it all goes wrong and you really have to fight for your life.

2. Most events do not require instant action. The ones that do are regularly practised on the simulator so that they become routine. Such things as rejected take-off, engine out after V1 and wind shear recovery are good examples where an instant and correct response is required.

3. For all other events there is time to assess the situation. This is absolutely vital because it is imperative to avoid the false hypothesis and to embark on the wrong course of action.

4. Know your aircraft. A good knowledge of the manuals, where to find information, how the aircraft works and what the systems do and how they do it saves time when you have to do things in a hurry, giving you more time to think.

5. If you are to assess the situation correctly you need to shed workload and buy time, therefore hand over control to the other pilot and make maximum use of the autopilot.

6. Be like a doctor. Observe the situation, diagnose the problem and then prescribe the correct checklist. Remember that the checklist is the best compendium of actions available to you, it has been thought out by people who really do know what they are talking about (the manufacturer, test pilots, the CAA, your own airline) and they will have done so in the peace and quiet of the office when there is plenty of time to think. Remember also that for every item in the check list someone may have died for it. So follow the checklist. It is also the means of coordinating the crew.

7. Now comes the difficult bit, when do you chuck the checklist out of the window? Well, if it is imperative to get on the ground ASAP (it is on fire and likely to fall apart at any moment) all aircraft are still like Tiger Moths. Even in a modern jet you only have to slow up to around 240kts and stick some flap out, slow up a bit more (say to 180kts) and stick some more flap out, put the gear down, stick down landing flap and then stick it on the runway. You won’t have gone far wrong – the other bits are not essential – EXCEPT – you must remember to de-pressurise before landing otherwise you won’t be able to open the doors and evacuate the aircraft.

8. ABOVE ALL, GUARD AGAINST THE WRONG HYPOTHESIS.

[Sciolistes]

The "all engine failure" is a walk in the park, if at a resonably comfortable altitude.

I was referring specifically to the actions intended to get at least one engine in a timely manner.

[Escape Path]

The young checkpilot stopped the sim right there and demanded to what he was doing. The captains reply. "Son, nobody ever killed themselves winding the clock, but plenty of guys have killed themselves hurrying the emergency procedures ....."

That's experience right there. You cannot buy that

Bergerie1: Massive post, sir!

[stiffwing]

"There is absolutely NOTHING that EVER needs to be done in a hurry in an aircraft."

I disagree

The only thing that has to be done immediately without discussion is GPWS recovery, except in Day VMC where there are no terrain issues
Everything else can wait

[SKS777FLYER]

Some quotes:

"There is absolutely NOTHING that EVER needs to be done in a hurry in an aircraft."

I disagree

The only thing that has to be done immediately without discussion is GPWS recovery, except in Day VMC where there are no terrain issues
Everything else can wait

Maybe there is sarcasm in those quotes because if not, I'm guessing that neither poster has ever had a near mid-air or sudden wild airport ground traffic. Probably never experienced a fire on the flight deck or an explosive de-compression at FL430. Probably never experienced a hardover rudder on a cat stroke of an aircraft carrier. There exists a long list of possible events while manipulating the pointy end of an aircraft that need addressed PRONTO w/o the need of committee or political correctness awareness, not to mention multiple checklist management, to increase the occupants odds of seeing another sunrise or sunset.
Capt. Sully Sullenburger might have a word or two to offer about such events.

[A-3TWENTY]

There are examiners and examiners.

I`m flyng for a chinese company and there is one guy who likes to put you a failure.Then the pilot requested a vor to be in holding over and comply with the drills. In the middle of their procedure , he got an engine fire which after the ecam actions didn`t extinguish.

Of course , pilots decided to leave the procedure thew were donig , gave priority to the fire and got back.

They were criticezed becoause of the rush to return .
I Can`t understand.

Bye

[Bergerie1]

Atlas Shrugged

There are some things that do require instant action, as I hinted at in item No 2 in my previous post, and as has been expanded upon correctly by SKS777FLYER. However, I think all three of us are agreed on the need, normally, to take one's time and to act calmly and methodically - as demonstrated rather magnificently by the elderly captain who wound the clock!

My reasons for not normally rushing into action are (1) to guard against taking the wrong initial actions; and (2) to avoid the wrong hypothesis.

This latter point is subtle and important. If something alarming happens suddenly and you fixate on the wrong hypothesis it is almost impossible, when under stess, to re-evaluate the situation and to change your mind. You are then in danger of carrying out a set of actions which may well be the right ones for the false hypothesis but not appropriate for the actual situation.

[A380 Jockey]

I guess some of us are still trying to figure out the difference between doing something quickly and getting things done quickly.
SKS,ever heard of the phrase 'hurry up slowly'...?

[Atlas Shrugged]

I guess some of us are still trying to figure out the difference between doing something quickly and getting things done quickly.

My point, exactly.

Acting quickly and hurrying are two vastly different things.

[Tmbstory]

There is absolutely NOTHING that EVER needs to be done in a hurry in an aircraft

Atlas Shrugged:

It depends on how many seconds you have left to recover the aircraft before ground contact.

Tmb

[isaneng]

As I'm still flying on a 4 man flight deck, I still have the luxury of running checklists with one other person dedicated to challenge and response. As an instructor/checker for the last 20 years, I agree wholeheartedly with the recurrent comments above. The debrief remarks from post #1 seem to come from a relatively new examiner, and perhaps are more indicative of his inexperience than anything else. I know that it took a few years before I became more than 'technically' competent as an instructor, as my own experience/airmanship/maturity grew. As a military man, (who else has aircraft old enough for a 4 man flight deck....), we have had a good central training system for many years now (although budget restraints now limit the number of coloured pens for diagrams..), but perhaps more importantly we have had a wealth of experience to draw upon for our instructor cadre. And that experience was frequently accompanied by time on different types and roles. My perception is that the appointment of TREs etc in many companies often has a political input as well as professional, but I stand by to be corrected!

[Microburst2002]

Here there are to opposing variables:

time to carry out the drills Vs good team working

If you split the crew in two, you can do the drill in a shorter time, but at the expense of team working and all its safety benefits.

I advocate for the team working, more time consuming, approach. It is my opinion that the old Aviate-Navigate-Comunicate and Manage means:

1-both pilots Aviate (one handling, the other watching carefully and making sure that the handling pilots is handling and that the handling is adecuate, assissing him and bringing to his attention any discrepancy or doubt about the flight path, automation modes, etc...). PNF will not carry out anything else as long as the Aviate part hasn't been assured

2-both pilots Navigate (one handling, the other monitoring, assissting). PNF will not do anything else until the Navigate is assured

3-both pilots Communicate (one using the mike and talking, the other paying attention to what is said, then both making sure the other one knows what has been said). The communicate part has to be done, if necessary (sometimes it is not). If there is any necessary communication, it must be done before managing the drill. Otherwise the crew can go on with the drill directly

4-both pilots Manage (the PNF carriying out the checklist, then both pilots assessing the situation, then making decision)

YOu can save time but letting PF do Aviate and Navigate while PNF does comm and checklists. The question is: Is time so important?? Most of the times, it is not, in my opinion. It is better the team approach than the time approach, except when circumnstances are very critical, when time can be the top priority.

I have observed that many captains have the tendency of neglecting flight path while they monitor what the F/O is doing in the overhead panel after they have prompted them to start with the drills. I have seen this happen many times in the sim. A very clear simptom of this is the THR LK single chime every 5 secs, for instance. In such cases captains destroy the team and pull the F/O out of the Aviate-navigate, while they does neglect it as well. This is very dangerous, and there is no reason to rush (normally).

You have to be very very good to split the team and still ensure Aviate, Navigate, Communicate and monitor the PNF's Manage with the same level of redundancy that you can obtain working as a team.

[Dimlightbulbs]

Most of us know what needs to be done right away, vs what we can take our time with.

What isn't always obvious is the recognition that the guy behind you in the box might be using his position to wind up the pilots, create undue stress etc.

I'm not above firing instructors, I've done it. Some guys just shouldn't be teaching.

[grounded27]

There will allways be grey between airmanship and procedure. The airlines and CAA's wish to push to the latter.

[Idle Thrust]

Reminds me of the old tale:

YOUNG BULL - Lets run over to that field and do a couple of heifers.

OLD BULL - Let's WALK over and do the lot!

[3holelover]

.....still, I'd have been happier to hear that Jeffrey Skiles had hit the ditching switch sometime before they hit the water, rather than plodding through checklists he must have known he couldn't complete.