QANTAS A380 Uncontained failure.
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RR makes noise of its constant monitoring program. It is impressive on screen (video) but is essentially a real time ACARS, (shout out to AF447). With a minimum one minute lapse in sampling, it is about as helpful. Perhaps the profit is here, in the NEW, HIGH TECH! Power by hour format. Some of what was traditionally treated with serious professional scepticism has become marketing Fluff prior to proof.
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Marketing v Safety then?
One hates it when hyperactive amateurs suffering from confirmation bias jump to conclusions beyond their competence or knowledge.
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Derate is identical to over-built. Shell makes excellent polymer, and adhesives, and used to do decent research in Emeryville. ()
(it was NOT easy synchronizing those fingers)
Derating also can be political; as such, it allows for "squishy" parameters, and "Test on Wing".
"Open 'er UP" can describe Throttle, and engine Case also.
bear
)(it was NOT easy synchronizing those fingers)
Derating also can be political; as such, it allows for "squishy" parameters, and "Test on Wing".
"Open 'er UP" can describe Throttle, and engine Case also.
bear
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Yes DERG and Bearfoil, and those contributions are to this thread irrelavent like most of your posts.
'Trying to help Rolls Royce' - how arrogant is it possible to be?
'Trying to help Rolls Royce' - how arrogant is it possible to be?
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bearfoil;
RE "Test on Wing": You mean the thousands of hours and flight cycles accumulated in the AB flight test programme prior to entry into commercial service?
RE "Test on Wing": You mean the thousands of hours and flight cycles accumulated in the AB flight test programme prior to entry into commercial service?
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Engine Certification
DERG & Bearfoil
Design, Testing & Certification Requirements To Gain Engine Type Certification
I thought it might be interesting for you to see and browse the various requirements set forth by the US FAA to gain type certification for a turbine engine. Many of the questions being posed in recent posts are covered somewhere in this document. I would assume the European requirements are the same.
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:
Also, there are Advisory Circulars that give guidance to specific topics. These are not mandatory as there may be other ways to demonstrate compliance to the specific topic. Examples are:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2033-3/$FILE/AC33-3.pdf
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2033.14-1/$FILE/ac33.14-1.pdf
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2033.63-1/$FILE/AC33.63_1.pdf
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2033.27-1/$FILE/AC33-27-1.pdf
You will need to copy and paste the advisories into your browser to view them.
In another post I will talk more about modeling, analysis and monitoring.
Design, Testing & Certification Requirements To Gain Engine Type Certification
I thought it might be interesting for you to see and browse the various requirements set forth by the US FAA to gain type certification for a turbine engine. Many of the questions being posed in recent posts are covered somewhere in this document. I would assume the European requirements are the same.
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:
Also, there are Advisory Circulars that give guidance to specific topics. These are not mandatory as there may be other ways to demonstrate compliance to the specific topic. Examples are:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2033-3/$FILE/AC33-3.pdf
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2033.14-1/$FILE/ac33.14-1.pdf
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2033.63-1/$FILE/AC33.63_1.pdf
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2033.27-1/$FILE/AC33-27-1.pdf
You will need to copy and paste the advisories into your browser to view them.
In another post I will talk more about modeling, analysis and monitoring.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 29th Jan 2011 at 19:07.
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Thank You Turbine D
I see the shell person has gone offline, you know we had a good run on here before that kind of intimidation. They actually have a USA 0800 nuber for bullies on line, but this web site is in the UK I think.
Maybe he knows the guy from QuinitiQ the " lube scientist" the former mine detection robotics salesmen.? Steve Lee he is called. Who knows?
Now too look at these new USA links. When I was searching Turbine it was notable that USA concerns readily accepted "modelling" as tool and not the exalted technique it appears to be overhere.
Maybe he knows the guy from QuinitiQ the " lube scientist" the former mine detection robotics salesmen.? Steve Lee he is called. Who knows?
Now too look at these new USA links. When I was searching Turbine it was notable that USA concerns readily accepted "modelling" as tool and not the exalted technique it appears to be overhere.
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First Failure
The accident T972 did not comply with this for starters
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu.../AC33.63_1.pdf
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu.../AC33.63_1.pdf
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DERG
Yes, I noted the same thing (Shell Person). It's too bad some people play the "phantom" critic role and contribute nothing to the technical discussions of the day.
Yes, I noted the same thing (Shell Person). It's too bad some people play the "phantom" critic role and contribute nothing to the technical discussions of the day.
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HazelNuts39
"test on Wing". I think my comment was a bit flippant, I did not mean there was an actual recognized and formal test. I meant to characterise what some may see as a "De Facto" situation. A regime of rigid inspections enforced in an attempt to "monitor" known and potentially disastrous "unknown" conditions. The potential for disaster is patent in EASA's description of the "conditions". Down to a ten cycle inspection, known and very troubling wear could result in "Loss of the Aircraft".
I remain troubled by what I see as distraction; an attempt to sever the "Oil Pipe" fiasco from the AD, a "May have resulted in..." going unaddressed (at least here), and data and comment by the manufacturer at fault taken at face value.
Perhaps I am completely off base. There may be too much discussion? I am simply mystified at some of what I am reading, and by the apparent lack of concern. This flight came within a speck of going down, and for reasons that were addressed by AD's in an ongoing and co-operative manner for an entire year.
"test on Wing". I think my comment was a bit flippant, I did not mean there was an actual recognized and formal test. I meant to characterise what some may see as a "De Facto" situation. A regime of rigid inspections enforced in an attempt to "monitor" known and potentially disastrous "unknown" conditions. The potential for disaster is patent in EASA's description of the "conditions". Down to a ten cycle inspection, known and very troubling wear could result in "Loss of the Aircraft".
I remain troubled by what I see as distraction; an attempt to sever the "Oil Pipe" fiasco from the AD, a "May have resulted in..." going unaddressed (at least here), and data and comment by the manufacturer at fault taken at face value.
Perhaps I am completely off base. There may be too much discussion? I am simply mystified at some of what I am reading, and by the apparent lack of concern. This flight came within a speck of going down, and for reasons that were addressed by AD's in an ongoing and co-operative manner for an entire year.
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Shell Management:
Spot on, SM. Almost every OEM has done it, or has wished they had.
NO! I don't see any of that on this thread, do you? 
No - derating increases engine life and higher power testing irons out problems earlier.
One hates it when hyperactive amateurs suffering from confirmation bias jump to conclusions beyond their competence or knowledge.
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Modeling, Analysis & Monitoring
DERG & Bearfoil
Modeling & Analysis
Today, every unique component in a new aircraft engine is designed using a 3D modeling program. There are no longer masses of 2D blueprints produced (except for special requests). 3D programs such as Unigraphics or Catia are widely used in the aircraft business. Upon completion of the component being designed on the computer, the electronic files are saved and passed on for various purposes to various entities:
1. In-house analysis groups that determine the designed component's suitability in meeting the various parameters basic to the design, e.g. fatigue life, vibratory stress limits, temperature parameters, weight limitations, etc.
2. Suppliers that will produce the basic component, casting, forging, inspection gauging, etc., who in turn will forward the electronic data to their suppliers that build the tooling that will produce the component.
3. Manufacturing Centers that will machine the components where the electronic data is programmed into the units that will be used to machine, produce and inspect the final product.
So modeling is today's way of life and it has reduced the number of mistakes that were common in the past. It is not to say there are not pit-falls, there can be as Airbus found out on the A-380 program. In their case, although one common program (Catia) was used to design the electrical wirings system for different sections of the fuselage, two different version were used and when it came time to put the sections together, the electrical wiring didn't go together causing a ~2 year delay.
So if you model every component in a turbine engine, is it possible to assemble all the components together on the computer to see what the engine looks like in total? Why yes it is and it has been done. Then, is it possible to look at the engine on the computer and run it and perform dynamic analysis of vibrations, pressures, temperatures, transient conditions, clearance controls, SFC, etc? Well, yes but, some things have to be done first. Since many of the analysis programs were developed at different times, the codes used do not mesh together at all. So if the individual codes were to be redeveloped using a common code an actual engine can be put through its paces on the computer while checking key metrics and engine behavior characteristics. Mind you, this can be all accomplished without buying or producing any physical parts. This is the direction engine design and manufacturing is headed, if not already there at this moment.
Monitoring
Aircraft engine producers have known for sometime that the money (profit) is not in the sales of the original engine (often they are sold at cost or below cost early in the program), but in the subsequent sales of spare parts or replacement parts. Today it takes an investment of $2B to develop and certify a new large turbofan engine and it takes a long runway program to break even. In the meantime, airlines worldwide struggle to make money with the ups and downs of fuel costs and revenue passengers in ever changing economic times. To cut costs, many have disbanded their engine overhaul shops and therein lies a new business for the OEM's, provide this service. To do it right, real time engine monitoring is a necessity to set realistic fees to provide this service (Power by The Hour, Total Care, whatever). And so you will see increasing levels of realtime downloading of engine operating parameters (as many as a hundred or more parameters) to both the airline and OEM's appraised of operating conditions while working together to keeps the engines performing and in the air, out of the overhaul shops as much as possible, a win-win situation for everyone.
This is how I see the engine business going forward in today's computer driven world.
Modeling & Analysis
Today, every unique component in a new aircraft engine is designed using a 3D modeling program. There are no longer masses of 2D blueprints produced (except for special requests). 3D programs such as Unigraphics or Catia are widely used in the aircraft business. Upon completion of the component being designed on the computer, the electronic files are saved and passed on for various purposes to various entities:
1. In-house analysis groups that determine the designed component's suitability in meeting the various parameters basic to the design, e.g. fatigue life, vibratory stress limits, temperature parameters, weight limitations, etc.
2. Suppliers that will produce the basic component, casting, forging, inspection gauging, etc., who in turn will forward the electronic data to their suppliers that build the tooling that will produce the component.
3. Manufacturing Centers that will machine the components where the electronic data is programmed into the units that will be used to machine, produce and inspect the final product.
So modeling is today's way of life and it has reduced the number of mistakes that were common in the past. It is not to say there are not pit-falls, there can be as Airbus found out on the A-380 program. In their case, although one common program (Catia) was used to design the electrical wirings system for different sections of the fuselage, two different version were used and when it came time to put the sections together, the electrical wiring didn't go together causing a ~2 year delay.
So if you model every component in a turbine engine, is it possible to assemble all the components together on the computer to see what the engine looks like in total? Why yes it is and it has been done. Then, is it possible to look at the engine on the computer and run it and perform dynamic analysis of vibrations, pressures, temperatures, transient conditions, clearance controls, SFC, etc? Well, yes but, some things have to be done first. Since many of the analysis programs were developed at different times, the codes used do not mesh together at all. So if the individual codes were to be redeveloped using a common code an actual engine can be put through its paces on the computer while checking key metrics and engine behavior characteristics. Mind you, this can be all accomplished without buying or producing any physical parts. This is the direction engine design and manufacturing is headed, if not already there at this moment.
Monitoring
Aircraft engine producers have known for sometime that the money (profit) is not in the sales of the original engine (often they are sold at cost or below cost early in the program), but in the subsequent sales of spare parts or replacement parts. Today it takes an investment of $2B to develop and certify a new large turbofan engine and it takes a long runway program to break even. In the meantime, airlines worldwide struggle to make money with the ups and downs of fuel costs and revenue passengers in ever changing economic times. To cut costs, many have disbanded their engine overhaul shops and therein lies a new business for the OEM's, provide this service. To do it right, real time engine monitoring is a necessity to set realistic fees to provide this service (Power by The Hour, Total Care, whatever). And so you will see increasing levels of realtime downloading of engine operating parameters (as many as a hundred or more parameters) to both the airline and OEM's appraised of operating conditions while working together to keeps the engines performing and in the air, out of the overhaul shops as much as possible, a win-win situation for everyone.
This is how I see the engine business going forward in today's computer driven world.
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I see
Yes I see clearly that will be the reality.
In my book this failure was something out of 100 year old accident report, something you would dig up in a mouldy old "Mechanical Eng Failures of 1911"
Whatever was the cause there was a HELL of a breakdown in communications and respect between the different parts of RR. and Airbus. They spent 15 months flight testing alone.
The fact that we have only TWO main supliiers viz GE and RR does not, in my view, help the civil aerospace industry. The fact that we have TWO sets of environmental protection targets to meet does not help.
The EADS set up in my view has many other cultural/language problems to over come as you highlighted with the simple connector variance.
Unlike MIT which is very much an egalitarian our top academic facilities are distant from reality, insular and less approachable. Our military facilities in Europe have been decimated and in that process we lost many skills that so could easily prevent this accident.
I'm tired. If the shell person comes back tell him I use pure virgin olive oil in summer and mix it with a little kerosine in winter. That usually is enough to move 'em on.
In my book this failure was something out of 100 year old accident report, something you would dig up in a mouldy old "Mechanical Eng Failures of 1911"
Whatever was the cause there was a HELL of a breakdown in communications and respect between the different parts of RR. and Airbus. They spent 15 months flight testing alone.
The fact that we have only TWO main supliiers viz GE and RR does not, in my view, help the civil aerospace industry. The fact that we have TWO sets of environmental protection targets to meet does not help.
The EADS set up in my view has many other cultural/language problems to over come as you highlighted with the simple connector variance.
Unlike MIT which is very much an egalitarian our top academic facilities are distant from reality, insular and less approachable. Our military facilities in Europe have been decimated and in that process we lost many skills that so could easily prevent this accident.
I'm tired. If the shell person comes back tell him I use pure virgin olive oil in summer and mix it with a little kerosine in winter. That usually is enough to move 'em on.