Why Captain sits on the Left?
My understanding re RHS helicopters is that Igor Sikorky adapted the vs 300 into a two seater he placed the collective in the center. When he trained the new pilots since he was comfortable in the LHS the new trainees were RHS, then it became tradition. However when doing long lining it is normally flown from the LHS since it is easier to lean over the collective while watching the load.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
rigpiggy:
I was once told it was because some early helicopter's exhuast fire created some reflective issue for the guy in the left seat. I always relegated that one to a sea tale.
My understanding re RHS helicopters is that Igor Sikorky adapted the vs 300 into a two seater he placed the collective in the center. When he trained the new pilots since he was comfortable in the LHS the new trainees were RHS, then it became tradition. However when doing long lining it is normally flown from the LHS since it is easier to lean over the collective while watching the load.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, speaking of which, and in due deference to the regularity with which this question crops up, I wonder if I might drift the thread a bit...
If anchoring on a sandy bottom in strong tides, should I opt for the Danforth or CQR, and is an angel necessary?
If anchoring on a sandy bottom in strong tides, should I opt for the Danforth or CQR, and is an angel necessary?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Worth a ponder, errr dunno.
As far as aircraft are concerned l`ve tended to believe it stems from cavalry days with a sword in the right hand being free. Royal Flying Corps recruitment ?
Castle staircases turning anti-clockwise - looking up - the same thing.
And staying to the right whilst following a line feature seems to enforce that, but who knows ?
Castle staircases turning anti-clockwise - looking up - the same thing.
And staying to the right whilst following a line feature seems to enforce that, but who knows ?
Just an other digit
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: a million miles away
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And I always thought the pilot was in the left hand seat because the circuit is anticlockwise.
And the circuit is anticlockwise because of huge torque in early single engines making it easier to do a left turn than a right.
But I stand to be corrected.
And the circuit is anticlockwise because of huge torque in early single engines making it easier to do a left turn than a right.
But I stand to be corrected.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And staying to the right whilst following a line feature seems to enforce that, but who knows ?
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: La Belle Province
Posts: 2,179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why Captain sits on the Left?
More seriously, I vaguely recall that some WW2 bombers with multiperson crews, but only one pilot, had side by side seating. I wonder if the pilot in those aircraft was consistently on the left of the aircraft.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They were.
As an after thought, Cherry Brandy was used as an antidote to castor oiled engines causing loose bowels.
Stories of drunkeness, Google Captain Strange caught hanging upside down from his open top scout with his trousers almost off.
As an after thought, Cherry Brandy was used as an antidote to castor oiled engines causing loose bowels.
Stories of drunkeness, Google Captain Strange caught hanging upside down from his open top scout with his trousers almost off.
Last edited by overun; 18th Dec 2010 at 21:16.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New Forest
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the left…
Slight thread drift, but this reminds me of a curious story from the mil flight safety mag whilst serving in FARELF. The story came from the US (I am not sure which service) in ‘Nam. A pilot was killed in a crash. The investigation found that he had been in a sustained left hand turn when he met the ground. He had had similar (but not fatal) prangs before and an in-depth investigation showed an extraordinary sequence of events. He was very lanky and he found it difficult to fit into the cockpit. When he had the chance, which occurred when flying a dual aircraft as single crew, he would transfer his right foot to the other set of controls. Unfortunately, on this flight (and obviously on previous ones) his right foot connected with the left pedal on the right hand set of controls. QED.
We used to fly our small military aircraft on to carriers during the Borneo do and I cannot remember there being any preference for either left or right hand circuits. By the time one arrived on finals, there was nothing to see anyway, just the knowledge that (hopefully) right underneath as one let down at 500 fpm, was a tin landing strip. But wonderful to find out about Port and Starboard – after all these years!
We used to fly our small military aircraft on to carriers during the Borneo do and I cannot remember there being any preference for either left or right hand circuits. By the time one arrived on finals, there was nothing to see anyway, just the knowledge that (hopefully) right underneath as one let down at 500 fpm, was a tin landing strip. But wonderful to find out about Port and Starboard – after all these years!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: France
Posts: 2,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I haven't flown enough helicopters to have a definite answer.
With most helicopters only having a centrally located collective, I found it easier to handle the 'more critical and twitchy' cyclic with my right hand, and the 'push-pull and twist' collective with my left hand, hence flying from the right-hand seat to me made sense.
On the other hand, my instructor in the LHS had no problems in that position, so I suppose it's not really a great deal.
Cough's, Admiral346's and P.Pilcher's answers in particular seem to confirm that.
CJ
BTW Think of manual-shift cars in town traffic - you do almost as much shifting as you do steering, with one hand almost permanently on the gearstick. I've driven both in the UK and in France for years, and I don't really have any recollection of one being any more difficult than the other.
With most helicopters only having a centrally located collective, I found it easier to handle the 'more critical and twitchy' cyclic with my right hand, and the 'push-pull and twist' collective with my left hand, hence flying from the right-hand seat to me made sense.
On the other hand, my instructor in the LHS had no problems in that position, so I suppose it's not really a great deal.
Cough's, Admiral346's and P.Pilcher's answers in particular seem to confirm that.
CJ
BTW Think of manual-shift cars in town traffic - you do almost as much shifting as you do steering, with one hand almost permanently on the gearstick. I've driven both in the UK and in France for years, and I don't really have any recollection of one being any more difficult than the other.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wingham NSW Australia
Age: 83
Posts: 1,343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain on Left
And here was me thinking it was because the Americans were the first to have an accepted "First flight by a powered aeroplane" and the have LH drive!!!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fixed Wing
This question is one I researched some time ago and the best answer I could come up with was a Notam back in the early days issuing a decree. The Vimy and 0/400 of WWI had the pilot on the right and the left occupied by an observer or gunner. The story,
LONDON-PARIS MACHINES COLLIDE
On Friday of last week (7 April 1922) an extremely regrettable and most unusual accident marred the running of the London Continental Air Service, which has hitherto been remarkably free from serious disasters. It is an accident, also, all the more unfortunate in that it involved the recently inaugurated Daimler Hire Service. A Goliath belonging to Grands Express—F-GEAD—piloted by M. Mire and carrying a mechanic and three passengers had left Le Bourget at 12.6 p.m. for Croydon. The weather was very misty and visibility bad, and when flying over Thieuloy, near Grandvilliers, at a height of only a few hundred feet, a D.H. 18, from Croydon—G-EAWO—of the Daimler Service, piloted by R. E. Duke and carrying a boy steward and mails, suddenly loomed out of the mist. Before either pilot could turn, the machines collided, and then crashed to earth in flames. The D.H. 18, it is stated, had its wing and tail broken off by the impact and fell immediately, whilst the Goliath swooped to earth a little further off. Assistance was at once rushed to the wrecked machines, but with the exception of the boy steward —Hesterman—who was terribly injured, all were found to be dead. The boy was taken immediately to the village, but died from his injuries some time later.
R. E. Duke was a well-known pilot of the Continental services, and had a distinguished war record in the R.A.F. He was formerly, before joining the Daimler service, with the Aircraft Transport and Travel Co. and the Royal Dutch Aviation Co. M. Mire, the French pilot, was also well known as a Continental Air Service pilot, and had been flying for Grands Express for over a year.
The following message of condolence has been sent by the Secretary of State for Air to M. Laurent Eynac, French Under-Secretary of State for Air, and to the Chairman of Daimler Hire, Ltd. :—
In my own name and that of the Air Council I offer you my deep sympathy on the fatal air collision which occurred yesterday, the only accident of this kind in the history of air transport between Great Britain and France.
(Signed) FREDERICK GUEST,
Secretary of State for Air.
NOTICE TO AIRMENRules for Flight over Air Routes.
It is notified :
1. In order to give general application to the rules designed to minimise the risk of collision, which have hitherto only applied to aircraft flying over an officially recognised air route, the following rules have been agreed on by the British, Belgian and Dutch Governments :—
(a) The normal procedure in order to reduce the risk of collision to the minimum consists in flying in a straight line, steering by the compass and carefully watching the air space in the region ahead of the aircraft. Every pilot, when flying on a compass course, shall, whenever it is safe and practicable, fly on the right of the straight line joining the point of departure to the point of arrival.
(b) When an aircraft is flying beneath cloud, it must keep at a fair distance below the cloud base in order to see and be seen.
(c) When a pilot decides to follow a route which is officially recognised or consists of a line of ground marks such as a road, railway, canal, river, etc., he should bear in mind that the risk of collision with another aircraft following the same route is considerable. Every pilot following such a route, therefore, shall endeavour to keep it at least 300 metres on his left. (My bolding)
(d) Every pilot who decides to cross any route he is following shall cross it at right angles and as high as circumstances permit. Should he desire, after crossing it, to resume flight in a direction parallel to the route, but keeping it on his right, he must keep sufficiently far from it to avoid aircraft following it in the normal way.
N.B.—These regulations shall in no way relieve pilots from the necessity of conforming to the regulations set forth in Annex D of the International Air Convention of October 13, 1919.
2. Pilots are not obliged by the above rules to follow an officially recognised air route, where such exists. " Point of arrival " and "point of departure" in rule (a) include all turning points on routes which are normally not flown on one straight course. The straight line referred to is that joining the extremities of each section of the route which is flown on one course.
3. Certain portions of the following routes have been officially recognised by the authorities concerned :—
London—Paris
London—Brussels
Paris—Brussels
London—Rotterdam
Amsterdam—Berlin
Rotterdam—Berlin
Rotterdam—Brussels.
4. Instances have recently occurred in which pilots have been careless in the observance of the rules which have been expressly designed for the general safety of all aircraft.
5. The importance of rigidly adhering to these regulations cannot be too strongly accentuated, and all pilots are invited to report at once to the Secretary, Air Ministry (D.C.A.), any infringements which may come to their notice.
And you thought SLOP was a new concept.
Helicopter
Helo convention does have the captain sitting on the right but there are exceptions, the Bell 47, also Enstrom and I think Hughes 500. The mission at times dictates the side the captain sits. In the S-76 normally the captain sits on the right, but in the SAR role with one operator, the captain sits on the left. Ditto long lining, captain sits on the left. In Vietnam on the Huey slick the US Army convention was for the captain to sit in the left seat. The reason given to me was that the visibility was much better because that seat had a smaller instrument panel obscuring the view. Personally when I made captain I stayed in the right seat because of the ease of access to radios.
Why helo guys sit on the right has always been a subject of much discussion and there are many thoughts but little concrete. The best theory I have come across and think probable is that the first helos had the one and only collective lever mounted between the two seats. That meant the left seat guy flew with left hand on the cyclic and right hand on the collective, the right seat guy of course it was the reverse, vis right hand cyclic, left hand collective. It was said that Igor preferred to sit in the left seat when training the new boys, and so the new pilots (in the right seat) grew accustomed and naturally preferred that position when they were let loose to the squadrons. Hey presto, a convention is born. A photo does exist of Igor occupying the left seat whist the aircraft is being flown by another pilot.
Photos show the Sikorsky R-4 (the first mass produced helo and the first to enter service with the United States Army Air Forces, Navy, Coast Guard, Royal Air Force and Royal Navy) doing ship trials being flown solo from the left seat. Other photos show the helo with a hoist on the left side, which meant the helo had to be flown from the right seat for the hoistee occupied the left seat once up at the door (Lateral C of G considerations aside). So maybe Sikorsky either set a convention by deciding on what side to put the hoist, or the side to put the hoist was dictated by the preference of seating position by the majority of pilots. Who knows?
This question is one I researched some time ago and the best answer I could come up with was a Notam back in the early days issuing a decree. The Vimy and 0/400 of WWI had the pilot on the right and the left occupied by an observer or gunner. The story,
LONDON-PARIS MACHINES COLLIDE
On Friday of last week (7 April 1922) an extremely regrettable and most unusual accident marred the running of the London Continental Air Service, which has hitherto been remarkably free from serious disasters. It is an accident, also, all the more unfortunate in that it involved the recently inaugurated Daimler Hire Service. A Goliath belonging to Grands Express—F-GEAD—piloted by M. Mire and carrying a mechanic and three passengers had left Le Bourget at 12.6 p.m. for Croydon. The weather was very misty and visibility bad, and when flying over Thieuloy, near Grandvilliers, at a height of only a few hundred feet, a D.H. 18, from Croydon—G-EAWO—of the Daimler Service, piloted by R. E. Duke and carrying a boy steward and mails, suddenly loomed out of the mist. Before either pilot could turn, the machines collided, and then crashed to earth in flames. The D.H. 18, it is stated, had its wing and tail broken off by the impact and fell immediately, whilst the Goliath swooped to earth a little further off. Assistance was at once rushed to the wrecked machines, but with the exception of the boy steward —Hesterman—who was terribly injured, all were found to be dead. The boy was taken immediately to the village, but died from his injuries some time later.
R. E. Duke was a well-known pilot of the Continental services, and had a distinguished war record in the R.A.F. He was formerly, before joining the Daimler service, with the Aircraft Transport and Travel Co. and the Royal Dutch Aviation Co. M. Mire, the French pilot, was also well known as a Continental Air Service pilot, and had been flying for Grands Express for over a year.
The following message of condolence has been sent by the Secretary of State for Air to M. Laurent Eynac, French Under-Secretary of State for Air, and to the Chairman of Daimler Hire, Ltd. :—
In my own name and that of the Air Council I offer you my deep sympathy on the fatal air collision which occurred yesterday, the only accident of this kind in the history of air transport between Great Britain and France.
(Signed) FREDERICK GUEST,
Secretary of State for Air.
NOTICE TO AIRMENRules for Flight over Air Routes.
It is notified :
1. In order to give general application to the rules designed to minimise the risk of collision, which have hitherto only applied to aircraft flying over an officially recognised air route, the following rules have been agreed on by the British, Belgian and Dutch Governments :—
(a) The normal procedure in order to reduce the risk of collision to the minimum consists in flying in a straight line, steering by the compass and carefully watching the air space in the region ahead of the aircraft. Every pilot, when flying on a compass course, shall, whenever it is safe and practicable, fly on the right of the straight line joining the point of departure to the point of arrival.
(b) When an aircraft is flying beneath cloud, it must keep at a fair distance below the cloud base in order to see and be seen.
(c) When a pilot decides to follow a route which is officially recognised or consists of a line of ground marks such as a road, railway, canal, river, etc., he should bear in mind that the risk of collision with another aircraft following the same route is considerable. Every pilot following such a route, therefore, shall endeavour to keep it at least 300 metres on his left. (My bolding)
(d) Every pilot who decides to cross any route he is following shall cross it at right angles and as high as circumstances permit. Should he desire, after crossing it, to resume flight in a direction parallel to the route, but keeping it on his right, he must keep sufficiently far from it to avoid aircraft following it in the normal way.
N.B.—These regulations shall in no way relieve pilots from the necessity of conforming to the regulations set forth in Annex D of the International Air Convention of October 13, 1919.
2. Pilots are not obliged by the above rules to follow an officially recognised air route, where such exists. " Point of arrival " and "point of departure" in rule (a) include all turning points on routes which are normally not flown on one straight course. The straight line referred to is that joining the extremities of each section of the route which is flown on one course.
3. Certain portions of the following routes have been officially recognised by the authorities concerned :—
London—Paris
London—Brussels
Paris—Brussels
London—Rotterdam
Amsterdam—Berlin
Rotterdam—Berlin
Rotterdam—Brussels.
4. Instances have recently occurred in which pilots have been careless in the observance of the rules which have been expressly designed for the general safety of all aircraft.
5. The importance of rigidly adhering to these regulations cannot be too strongly accentuated, and all pilots are invited to report at once to the Secretary, Air Ministry (D.C.A.), any infringements which may come to their notice.
And you thought SLOP was a new concept.
Helicopter
Helo convention does have the captain sitting on the right but there are exceptions, the Bell 47, also Enstrom and I think Hughes 500. The mission at times dictates the side the captain sits. In the S-76 normally the captain sits on the right, but in the SAR role with one operator, the captain sits on the left. Ditto long lining, captain sits on the left. In Vietnam on the Huey slick the US Army convention was for the captain to sit in the left seat. The reason given to me was that the visibility was much better because that seat had a smaller instrument panel obscuring the view. Personally when I made captain I stayed in the right seat because of the ease of access to radios.
Why helo guys sit on the right has always been a subject of much discussion and there are many thoughts but little concrete. The best theory I have come across and think probable is that the first helos had the one and only collective lever mounted between the two seats. That meant the left seat guy flew with left hand on the cyclic and right hand on the collective, the right seat guy of course it was the reverse, vis right hand cyclic, left hand collective. It was said that Igor preferred to sit in the left seat when training the new boys, and so the new pilots (in the right seat) grew accustomed and naturally preferred that position when they were let loose to the squadrons. Hey presto, a convention is born. A photo does exist of Igor occupying the left seat whist the aircraft is being flown by another pilot.
Photos show the Sikorsky R-4 (the first mass produced helo and the first to enter service with the United States Army Air Forces, Navy, Coast Guard, Royal Air Force and Royal Navy) doing ship trials being flown solo from the left seat. Other photos show the helo with a hoist on the left side, which meant the helo had to be flown from the right seat for the hoistee occupied the left seat once up at the door (Lateral C of G considerations aside). So maybe Sikorsky either set a convention by deciding on what side to put the hoist, or the side to put the hoist was dictated by the preference of seating position by the majority of pilots. Who knows?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yellow Brick Road
Posts: 1,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Come to think of it since my last post #6, apart from switching sides quite often in both fixed wing and helicopters, I have flown choppers for sling work where it's much easier to lean out left side with the collective on my left (eg Bell 47, Hughes 269). I have also flown aerobatic fixed wing aircraft where seating is fore/aft (eg Pitts Special) where the left/right seat issue is irrelevant anyway.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Helo captains
When I was going through my RAF engineer training I remember this subject being mentioned. The reason given by the RAF that the captain sits on the right are that in a hover or landing if he/she leans over to look out the side window the collective is more likely to be pulled up and the aircraft rises unintentionally to safety than if they sat on the left and pushed the collective down.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Durham
Posts: 483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
30 yrs since I did basic but we were taught to break away to the right and keep away from the red nav light on a head oncollision course. On non conflcting but opposing vectors the we kept the red nav light of other traffic to out left. On parallel courses our green matched there red and it was easy to keep check in VFR night time.
All our bases were aniti clockwise. All USN bases are anti clockwise too.
All our bases were aniti clockwise. All USN bases are anti clockwise too.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Carriages..cars, most of which had the driver on the left...had the aircraft guys putting the pilots on the left...simple....hence also the advent of left hand patterns...
Helos... the ascending blade of a helo creates more lift in forward flight then the ascending blade...so when going super fast...the descending blade can't really keep up and a yawing rolling tendency occurs..the weight of the pilot on the same side as the forward moving/ascending blade helps counter act this...
Anyone who actually flies helos single pilot on x countries will tire pretty quick of sitting on the descending blade side.... pushing the cyclic toward the side producing the most lift all day long...
Helos... the ascending blade of a helo creates more lift in forward flight then the ascending blade...so when going super fast...the descending blade can't really keep up and a yawing rolling tendency occurs..the weight of the pilot on the same side as the forward moving/ascending blade helps counter act this...
Anyone who actually flies helos single pilot on x countries will tire pretty quick of sitting on the descending blade side.... pushing the cyclic toward the side producing the most lift all day long...