Trident autothrust system and autoland

[ITman]

Thanks for the information ChristiannJ and Petermcleland I have now found the Farnbourough location:

The nose section of Trident three G-AWZI is located
at the Farnborough Air Sciences Trust (FAST) museum,
Farnborough airport. The museum is open every weekend
and bank holidays from 10:00 – 16:00 and entrance is FREE.
Address: Farnborough Air Sciences Trust Museum
85 Farnborough Road
Farnborough
Hampshire
GU14 6TF
Telephone: [phone]
Website: Farnborough Airsciences Trust homepage.

It is worth a look at their website many interesting items there....

[Hobo]

Prober - re the boost fuel - I stand to be corrected, but IIRC the fuel load was calculated in the normal way and 900KG min (ie it wasn't an extra 900kg) was loaded in the centre tank as that was the only tank that fed the boost (or an imbalance would result if it was fed from a wing tank). What was left was used in the passing FL100 fuel balancing process.

The T2 had a fin tank (700kg??) which drained into the centre tank - there was a speed limit (300kts??) until it had been used - also the T2 had water injection as an option on take off. This enhanced performance as long as you didn't want to climb, accelerate and turn at the same time. I remember a few occasions at Naples climbing into an inversion, turning and automatically levelling out.

The original Trident had 'pitch pvds' to the outboard of P1 & P2.

David Maltby's sim looks very close to the real thing - with the significant ommission of the pen holders under the coaming and chart holders below the DV window - both vital + (the scrap of card on the coaming with the flight number on it!)

[rogerbucks]

Trident 3 Sim

A few years ago a 'flew' Andy Mattick's Trident 3 sim; He had a purpose-built barn for the beast, and I remember doing night touch & go's at Gatwick (no day visuals were available).

As I recall, you did not attempt to flare for landing (this inevitably resulted in a stall), but flew the aircraft straight onto the deck. The sim was somewhere near Tatsfield- lost his number, so I don't know whether it's still operational.

[petermcleland]

Originally Posted by Hobo

Prober - re the boost fuel - I stand to be corrected, but IIRC the fuel load was calculated in the normal way and 900KG min (ie it wasn't an extra 900kg) was loaded in the centre tank as that was the only tank that fed the boost (or an imbalance would result if it was fed from a wing tank). What was left was used in the passing FL100 fuel balancing process.

The T2 had a fin tank (700kg??) which drained into the centre tank - there was a speed limit (300kts??) until it had been used - also the T2 had water injection as an option on take off. This enhanced performance as long as you didn't want to climb, accelerate and turn at the same time. I remember a few occasions at Naples climbing into an inversion, turning and automatically levelling out.

The original Trident had 'pitch pvds' to the outboard of P1 & P2.

David Maltby's sim looks very close to the real thing - with the significant ommission of the pen holders under the coaming and chart holders below the DV window - both vital + (the scrap of card on the coaming with the flight number on it!)

Hobo, on that last point (the vital data card) David improved on that by mounting it over on the left as a grey card that could have the numbers written in chinagraph. When you load the aircraft and climb aboard the card is blank, however one click on the card fills it with the relevant figures for your weight at the time. In the air, on final approach, another click fills in the Vref. I think that card is visible in my YouTube video previously pointed to.

BTW...as someone mentioned, I had a very small part in its development but only very tiny points about things like the drift shutter operation and how the handbrake two sets of gauges worked etc. He did all the modelling and programmed the flight characteristics which are extremely realistic compared to the real thing. I wrote the Autoland Tutorial that can be downloaded with it and supplied some files that set up various training flights from Heathrow, culminating in a full Cat IIIb approach with very near minimum conditions. The other really amazing thing about it is the fact that it is Free!

You can probably judge just how realistic the Cat III is by glancing at these screenshots:-

FSScreenshots.com Forum - Viewing topic #5514 - Anyone for CAT III...

[keyole]

Hi, very interesting thread.
There used to be a guy named Andy Matocks who had a fully functionaling ex BA Trident 3 set up at his farm. It used to be about 100 quid for 2 hours. The sim was located near to Biggin Hill airport. I'm afraid I don't have any contact information now, but a bit of 'googling' around or a trip to Biggin Hill would probably find Andy and his sim.
rgds Bob.
ps I seem to remember reading somewhere that information regarding the Papa India accident in 1972 was classified for 50 years. I've read the accident report, but I'm curious about what mustn't be released for 50 years. Anyone got any ideas? Cheers.

[Craggenmore]

Found this going through some old pics. Shame I can't get the scan clearer!

[IMG][/IMG]

[avionic type]

Thank you all for bringing back long forgotten memories of the Trident Auto Pilot system I was a avionic mech who helped to de-snag all the defects in the central area at LHR crawling under the flt deck floor to the "Electrics bay"to change the triplex system of pitch,roll,yaw , and autothrottle computers which were situated there plus that blasted signal generator that was housed there as well without which we would never have be able fault find and recertify the Autoland . it had its faults as a system ie it had mechanical switching as electronic switching was not available at the time and these used to stick and that channel was "thrown off " by the the other channels ,but from the late 60s to the end of the Tridents life it did 1000s of Autolands safely and may be did not repay the huge amount of the costs of development but it cut down huge diversion costs in bad weather But it was the first and the A.R.B. laid down very hard demands to reach its goals
it could all be summed up by the remarks the passengers said which were "Did WE Land in this fog, how are we going to drive home ?"

[Aileron Drag]

Does anyone else remember the trouble one had starting the T3 boost? I seem to remember having to open the rpm on number 2 at a very carefully judged rate to get the damned thing to light-up. Too fast on the rpm increase and it would stall; too slow and it would overtemp, resulting in flames gushing out of the tail-pipe.

There were Boost-Engine-Gurus, who could always start the blasted thing first time. And when you switched the thing off (at 9,500 feet?), the average disgusting Gripper Mark 3 would start to descend! The T3 was absolutely and indisputably the second-worst aircraft I've flown. The worst was the Piper Tomahawk, but the revolting T3 wasn't far behind.

The T1 was a nice aeroplane; the T2 was a sports version. The Trident 1E was the turbocharged edition.

I'm sorry for the poor souls of my generation who were condemned to a decade flying the Trident 3. They deserve a medal.

AD

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by rogerbucks

I remember doing night touch & go's at Gatwick (no day visuals were available).

Unfortunately the Trident never operated out of Gatwick.

As I recall, you did not attempt to flare for landing (this inevitably resulted in a stall), but flew the aircraft straight onto the deck.

You mean like a PA-28R with the Hershey bar wings ?

[Trident Sim]

WHBM

Unfortunately the Trident never operated out of Gatwick.

Actually it did, albeit on rare occasions.

Although as far as I’m aware there was never a permanent Trident base at LGW, it was not unknown for an aircraft and crew to be based temporarily at LGW, to cover aircraft shortages or unserviceability there.

Twice in the 1980's I did just that, being based at a LGW hotel for a week, and operating to FRA and DUS.

Regards

Trident Sim

[WHBM]

Indeed, I should have been more precise, and have said that there was not a Trident base or schedule at Gatwick.

I think the only London bases were Heathrow ....... and Stansted (that should be good for a few more posts ).

[avionic type]

I'll talk to tristar 500 and ask him to give you the gen, he used to be good at starting boost engines at 4am in the morning on ramp checks.

[petermcleland]

I've just been reminded of a Video that an ex BA crew friend made of the Trident Autoland in Flight Sim...It makes some use of the "Virtual Cockpit" as well as the 2D Panel. It runs for about 4 minutes and is best viewed when clicked up to HD 1080 and "Big Screen". It has sound:-

Ian's video of Autoland:-

YouTube - Autoland Cat IIIb

[Wookey]

Just why was the Trident a three pilot flight deck when surely most short haul aircraft of the era had become two crew operations?

[slast]

Just why was the Trident a three pilot flight deck when surely most short haul aircraft of the era had become two crew operations?

The two pilot crew aircraft up to the early sixties were propeller driven types (piston or turboprop) and hence much slower and operated at lower altitude and so were less complex. There were no two crew civil transport jet types at that time as far as I recall. Initial 737 development started about 1964 with delivery '68 I think, the first DC9 was delivered in 1965. Crew complement and associated costs did not become a major issue until the 70s.

[petermcleland]

Originally Posted by Wookey

Just why was the Trident a three pilot flight deck when surely most short haul aircraft of the era had become two crew operations?

The Super 1-11 was two pilot crew but I think the HARCO helping automated route flying was part of the deal to get it accepted as two pilot crew...Later, HARCO was removed and the workload went up again. I flew it as a First Officer with HARCO and I really liked it...However, I got my command back on the three pilot Merchantman/Vanguard and then onto the three pilot Trident and I count myself very lucky to have been a Captain on three pilot crewed aircraft. As a First Officer I preferred two crew but as a Captain I much preferred three crew, especially with the excellent Trident First Officers!

[slast]

Sorry, yes I forgot the 1-11, that was first delivered in January '65 so didn't pre-date the Gripper. The other shorthaul jets of the era included the Comet and Caravelle which were both 3-crew.

[tristar 500]

As avionic type haas quoted me as a Boost engine wizz!! I should point out that the biggest problem we had with them was lack of use, resulting in the fuel draining back to the centre fuel tank. This required the fuel system to be bled, my dodge was to bleed it but instead of doing a blow out to clear the residual fuel out of the system, was to replace the fuse & go straight for a start & most times that would fix the problem. I do recall that the run procedure was via the control switch on the overhead panel which could be selected to the rpm required, "eg" idle, climb & take off.


Wookey has commented on the crewing for the Trident. It was a very complicated aircraft & very advanced for it`s time. However in BEA (Best Ever Airline) we flew with a third pilot, other airlines like Northeast used a Flight Engineer. Their main task was monitering the systems as any failure had to be dealt with manually, "eg" generator or hydrualic failure.

[JW411]

I always thought that BEA was Back Every Afternoon.

[Hobo]

Better Eat Afterwards