Trident autothrust system and autoland
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Peter McLeland,
I just bought MS Flight SimulatorX as a result of seeing your pictures etc, never having had any desire to do simulator work at home previously!
I downloaded the files but the Tridents don't seem to be available, and I'm wondering if that's because Dave Maultby's website refers to FS4 and 9, not X. The file structure for FSX doesn't seem to be quite the same as is described, e.g. there's no "Aircraft" folder but rather a "sim objects/airplanes" one, and I wonder whether that is what is wrong - any thoughts?
Steve
I just bought MS Flight SimulatorX as a result of seeing your pictures etc, never having had any desire to do simulator work at home previously!
I downloaded the files but the Tridents don't seem to be available, and I'm wondering if that's because Dave Maultby's website refers to FS4 and 9, not X. The file structure for FSX doesn't seem to be quite the same as is described, e.g. there's no "Aircraft" folder but rather a "sim objects/airplanes" one, and I wonder whether that is what is wrong - any thoughts?
Steve
EDIT...Hi Steve,
I asked the question and got this reply:-
"Hi Peter,
The latest version of DM's Trident packages come with a readme file that covers the slight changes that need to be made to the file structure and effects. There are also some replacement files included with the panel package to allow their use in FSX.
The versions I'm referring to are the packages ending in _20081209.zip."
Let me know if you have any difficulty obtaining those files
Last edited by petermcleland; 29th Jan 2011 at 12:34.
Did a year on the T3 as an F/O. My line training was conducted by two TCs. The first was a rather grumpy older chap (RM) who told me off when I said I was enjoying the experience. 'You're not here to enjoy yourself,' he growled. The second chap was younger and more laid back (JM). He asked me to hand fly a departure one day. After a while it seemed to me there was a problem with roll control – the a/c seemed to have become very sensitive in roll and I found I was overcontrolling. Afraid to admit my lack of knowledge – obviously some factor had intruded that I should have known about from the ground school course – I persevered. The overcontrolling got worse. I looked across at JM, not knowing how to proceed. To my surprise he was grinning. 'Do you want the dampers back in now?' he asked. He'd switched them off without me noticing, presumably to demonstrate their necessity. He was a great character. He could devour an RE2 between landing and parking (with the F/O taxying).
A boost story. Oslo to LHR, mid-winter, full load of pax (140?). Contaminated runway, but TO perf okay with boost. Taxi out, light the boost just before entering the runway. P1 advances the throttles – the boost flames out! Taxi back to the gate. The engineer can't help – 'you'll have to take it boostless back to LHR'. Rework the TO perf w/o boost. Can only take 40-odd pax. I don't know how the ground staff did the cull but we left behind 100 odd v angry pax.
A boost story. Oslo to LHR, mid-winter, full load of pax (140?). Contaminated runway, but TO perf okay with boost. Taxi out, light the boost just before entering the runway. P1 advances the throttles – the boost flames out! Taxi back to the gate. The engineer can't help – 'you'll have to take it boostless back to LHR'. Rework the TO perf w/o boost. Can only take 40-odd pax. I don't know how the ground staff did the cull but we left behind 100 odd v angry pax.
This is an utterly absorbing thread. Sadly my contact with The Trident was either seeing the Northbound Belfast Shuttle turning vaguely left over The Midlands, or the decaying machines on the fire dump at the 23 threshold end at Teesside, almost as if they were victims of Midland's mid-eighties inroads into the shuttle routes.
Meanwhile...
London Heathrow B.E.A. Vickers Vanguard G-APER and two De Havilland Tridents | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Meanwhile...
London Heathrow B.E.A. Vickers Vanguard G-APER and two De Havilland Tridents | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
I remember a flight fromNicosia to LHR in a T3.The crew had problems with the boost but got it going eventually.I have a copy of the plog the captain gave me when I deplaned and I will try and post it when I find it.
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Trident auto-throttle
Thanks to all for a wonderful thread. I flew as pax on Tridents many, many years ago when studying in the UK even though international flights in those days cost nearly a month's pay. One episode that stuck in my mind is a flight from Edinburgh when, shortly after starting the take-off roll, the plane braked hard and taxied rapidly to the other end of the runway.... whereupon it did a neat 180 and took off in the opposite direction. No explanation was forthcoming from the flight-deck although there was considerable buzz in the cabin!
Anyway back to autothrottles, just for fun I coded up a pid controller for David Maltby's sim that can couple independently to the three throttles - there's a screenshot at http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/9435/t3ath.jpg . It is certainly odd seeing only two throttles moving, particularly in the descent when throttles 1 and 3 are near idle and the middle lever sticks up like a... sore thumb, I suppose.
One thing I've noted is that there isn't much reserve power with a Trident 3 on the glideslope at MLW with full flaps and gear down, and engine 2 set at 11200rpm. If it gets below the glideslope (thanks to FS's fickle wind system - DM's autoland does a superb job) it is hard put to climb back without adding power to No. 2. I suppose that's why the engine 2 setting on the T3 is higher than the T2, but even so it appears quite marginal.
Also, while engine 2 appears to be under-producing on the approach, it seems to produce too much thrust for the descent and the plane doesn't slow down easily at all, especially when clean.
Perhaps an ex-Trident pilot can comment on whether these are artefacts of the sim or whether the real planes were like this.
Anyway back to autothrottles, just for fun I coded up a pid controller for David Maltby's sim that can couple independently to the three throttles - there's a screenshot at http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/9435/t3ath.jpg . It is certainly odd seeing only two throttles moving, particularly in the descent when throttles 1 and 3 are near idle and the middle lever sticks up like a... sore thumb, I suppose.
One thing I've noted is that there isn't much reserve power with a Trident 3 on the glideslope at MLW with full flaps and gear down, and engine 2 set at 11200rpm. If it gets below the glideslope (thanks to FS's fickle wind system - DM's autoland does a superb job) it is hard put to climb back without adding power to No. 2. I suppose that's why the engine 2 setting on the T3 is higher than the T2, but even so it appears quite marginal.
Also, while engine 2 appears to be under-producing on the approach, it seems to produce too much thrust for the descent and the plane doesn't slow down easily at all, especially when clean.
Perhaps an ex-Trident pilot can comment on whether these are artefacts of the sim or whether the real planes were like this.
surplus power on approach or not!
Did my annual route check with one of the few who stood up against management at the papa india inquiry.
It was in the days before the Dibley descent computor - which was aimed at fuel saving and not dragging the beast in for the last 15 miles.
Did a perfect one into marseilles - spooled the engines up around 5 miles - you couldn't do it that late with some of the guys (in my final company we did it around 2 miles - but that is another story)
Last sector of the day was into heathrow at close to max landing weight onto 27 or 28 right.
ATC asked the preceding to keep 180 knots to the outer marker but unfortunately it was Alitalia whose english is marginally better than the Frogs.
The DC8 reduced to final approach speed as they didn't understand the instruction.
We were instructed to reduce to minimum safe speed but were still 20 knots plus faster than the Italians and around two grand we were told to execute a standard missed approach.
TOGA - advance the throttles and rotate to Go around attitude - check the speed before calling for the gear and flaps - forget the order for retracting them in BEA - and the speed had dropped around 10 knots below final approach speed.
Had never been in that situation before - nor were we trained to think.
Didn't want to call for the gear as with land flap we should have the gear siren blasting away - and at that indicated speed we would have got the death rattle if I called for the flaps.
Eventually I lowered the nose, descended, accelerated and then cleaned up.
Nothing was said in the debrief and I went home and reread the books to see what I should have done.
It didn't cover it - a bit like before papa india when we didn't have a procedure for a stick push.
There was also the trident 2 in nicosia that got low and slow during a training detail and firewall thrust wasn't enough to redeem the situation.
Gear and wing broke off which was repaired by BEA and reregistered as X ray Mike.
So yes - low and slow a Trident doesn't have a lot - if any - spare thrust.
(then there was the T3 at madrid........)
Did my annual route check with one of the few who stood up against management at the papa india inquiry.
It was in the days before the Dibley descent computor - which was aimed at fuel saving and not dragging the beast in for the last 15 miles.
Did a perfect one into marseilles - spooled the engines up around 5 miles - you couldn't do it that late with some of the guys (in my final company we did it around 2 miles - but that is another story)
Last sector of the day was into heathrow at close to max landing weight onto 27 or 28 right.
ATC asked the preceding to keep 180 knots to the outer marker but unfortunately it was Alitalia whose english is marginally better than the Frogs.
The DC8 reduced to final approach speed as they didn't understand the instruction.
We were instructed to reduce to minimum safe speed but were still 20 knots plus faster than the Italians and around two grand we were told to execute a standard missed approach.
TOGA - advance the throttles and rotate to Go around attitude - check the speed before calling for the gear and flaps - forget the order for retracting them in BEA - and the speed had dropped around 10 knots below final approach speed.
Had never been in that situation before - nor were we trained to think.
Didn't want to call for the gear as with land flap we should have the gear siren blasting away - and at that indicated speed we would have got the death rattle if I called for the flaps.
Eventually I lowered the nose, descended, accelerated and then cleaned up.
Nothing was said in the debrief and I went home and reread the books to see what I should have done.
It didn't cover it - a bit like before papa india when we didn't have a procedure for a stick push.
There was also the trident 2 in nicosia that got low and slow during a training detail and firewall thrust wasn't enough to redeem the situation.
Gear and wing broke off which was repaired by BEA and reregistered as X ray Mike.
So yes - low and slow a Trident doesn't have a lot - if any - spare thrust.
(then there was the T3 at madrid........)
Just for reference, while the gripper certainly didn't feel as if had a lot of spare thrust capacity, it obviously did meet them -BCARs at the time, now subsumed into JARs/FARs. These require that in the landing configuration, (i.e. gear down and landing flap) the steady gradient of climb may not be less than 3.2 percent, with the engines at the power or thrust that is available 8 seconds after initiation of movement of the power or thrust controls from the minimum flight idle to the go-around power or thrust setting" and at a speed not more than Vref.
That 8 second spool up allowance plus the fact that 3.2% is not much of a climb gradient - a bit less than 500 fpm at 150 kts. - means that the transition to a climb after pushing the thrust levers to go-around seems to take an awful long time!
That 8 second spool up allowance plus the fact that 3.2% is not much of a climb gradient - a bit less than 500 fpm at 150 kts. - means that the transition to a climb after pushing the thrust levers to go-around seems to take an awful long time!
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Trident Performance
On the subject of perf, you should have tried a two-engine ferry. Now that was an interesting take-off. There was a period of about 20 seconds from V1, during which an engine failure would result in the Airways Pension Scheme having three fewer monthly cheques to write in the future.
It was volunteer only, and we received a very nice commemorative tie for doing it - a three-pronged trident (as in Neptune's), with flames burning from only two spikes.
The trip was MAN-LHR, with a T/C with initials VG. Didn't phase him at all, as he'd done several already. The perf calcs took forever.
Still got the tie and, now, the pension too.
It was volunteer only, and we received a very nice commemorative tie for doing it - a three-pronged trident (as in Neptune's), with flames burning from only two spikes.
The trip was MAN-LHR, with a T/C with initials VG. Didn't phase him at all, as he'd done several already. The perf calcs took forever.
Still got the tie and, now, the pension too.
Last edited by Aileron Drag; 4th Feb 2011 at 09:06.
slast - I presume the go around performance was at airfield level and didn't take into account the altitude - which would have given a lower climb performance.
You probably remember the T3 that diverted to Madrid after an engine failure on take off (Malaga?) without checking the go around perf.
As often happened atc gave clearance for an Iberia DC9? to line up (always the worst controllers I came across) with full thrust she kept descending and the skipper ended up lowering the nose, cleaning up and followed the lower terrain.
Min drag was around 230kts I believe.
You probably remember the T3 that diverted to Madrid after an engine failure on take off (Malaga?) without checking the go around perf.
As often happened atc gave clearance for an Iberia DC9? to line up (always the worst controllers I came across) with full thrust she kept descending and the skipper ended up lowering the nose, cleaning up and followed the lower terrain.
Min drag was around 230kts I believe.
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Another boost story
Full load ex GVA. R/W 24 in use. Wind calm. Boost required (high terrain to the SW for anyone unfamiliar with Geneva).
Lined up for departure but boost would not start. Taxied back towards the ramp explaining to Pax that we could not take off as one of our engines was not working.
P3 checks manuals and says 'Hey we can use 06 without the boost.'
Ask ATC if we could use 06 - he says OK.
Check perf numbers and set up for new SID. By now we are just approaching the 06 holding point.
ATC says 'Line up cleared immediate TO with right turn out, traffic on approach 24 at 10 miles.'
With no time for thought had to explain to pax in about 10 seconds that even though one engine wasn't working we were going to take off anyway!
I still wonder just how that was received down the back!
Lined up for departure but boost would not start. Taxied back towards the ramp explaining to Pax that we could not take off as one of our engines was not working.
P3 checks manuals and says 'Hey we can use 06 without the boost.'
Ask ATC if we could use 06 - he says OK.
Check perf numbers and set up for new SID. By now we are just approaching the 06 holding point.
ATC says 'Line up cleared immediate TO with right turn out, traffic on approach 24 at 10 miles.'
With no time for thought had to explain to pax in about 10 seconds that even though one engine wasn't working we were going to take off anyway!
I still wonder just how that was received down the back!
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Trident Turnround...
I have re-rendered the TridentTurnround video in 1080 HD and it is now very suitable for Full Screen viewing.
YouTube - TridentTurnround1080.wmv
Click the resolution up to 1080 HD and then if you have a slowish Broadband which causes buffering pauses, click the Pause icon in the bottom left corner...Now WAIT as the pink band moves from left to right, till it gets about halfway across. Now click that same Pause icon to start it running again and finally click the Full Screen icon at bottom right...It should now run through without further pausing.
YouTube - TridentTurnround1080.wmv
Click the resolution up to 1080 HD and then if you have a slowish Broadband which causes buffering pauses, click the Pause icon in the bottom left corner...Now WAIT as the pink band moves from left to right, till it gets about halfway across. Now click that same Pause icon to start it running again and finally click the Full Screen icon at bottom right...It should now run through without further pausing.
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I worked with Tridents as a mechanic and was informed at the time that the disconnected autothrottle on No 2 was because the throttle system was continually modulating and the continual variation of rpm was upsetting some passengers.
Stand to be corrected but autothrottle on number two was disconnected for autoland due to the gain programming.
On descent number two was set at 10,800? rpm to maintain pressurization - any less then the cabin would climb.
When power was increased from a low state then the cabin pressure would surge - not very comfortable on the ear drums.
When we were eventually allowed to use manual throttle on approach all three were moved together.
On descent number two was set at 10,800? rpm to maintain pressurization - any less then the cabin would climb.
When power was increased from a low state then the cabin pressure would surge - not very comfortable on the ear drums.
When we were eventually allowed to use manual throttle on approach all three were moved together.
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Back to the top with it.
Did you fly the Trident? Tony Jarrett is trying to compile a complete list of G-ARPO's flights.
See this thread.
Did you fly the Trident? Tony Jarrett is trying to compile a complete list of G-ARPO's flights.
See this thread.
