Landing Without Papi Or Vasi
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 2
From: Oxford, UK
Interesting discussion. Reminds me of learning two different approaches with practically no clues.....glassy water landings in a J3, and, while training for the night rating at Wycombe Air Park, aircraft landing lights not working but runway lighting still ok. Sinking into a black hole, that's what it felt like.. no papi, or other useful indicators, but then it was only a PA28......
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
From: uk
Keep the runway in the window as said before, if the runway is going lower in the window and then disappears you will overshoot and vise versa, I fly a B727 all manual basic autopilot, GPS and no FMS all the planning in your head!
Happy Landings!
Happy Landings!
Joined: Feb 1998
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,595
Likes: 0
From: Formerly of Nam
Surely the answer of the poster above is enough? Even these
days arent pilots still taught to do pure visual approaches
(and black hole ones at night too) anymore without needing
some puter for guidance?
days arent pilots still taught to do pure visual approaches
(and black hole ones at night too) anymore without needing
some puter for guidance?
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
From: Caribbean
i'd add be aggressive on the controls. correct any error immediately, dont just lower the nose and wait for the alignment to come back. no actively correct any deviations.
SMJP at night, beautiful blackhole effect. the surrounding area is just soo dark..
and they have PAPI/VOR/DME and sometimes ILS
SMJP at night, beautiful blackhole effect. the surrounding area is just soo dark..
and they have PAPI/VOR/DME and sometimes ILS
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
From: UK
i'd add be aggressive on the controls.
Slasher, spot-on!
Has no-one heard of a sight picture approach?
I begin to worry when the lack of papis becomes any more than a passing comment in the landing brief.
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Boston
Black hole approach
Not sure anybody reads this old of a form entry, however when I fly at night over featureless terrain and I have to shoot a visual approach into an airport without a Vasi I go to the airport fly over the airport enter a standard traffic pattern which gives me a much better frame of reference of distances and approach angles when landing at such an airport.
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 4
From: last time I looked I was still here.
I'm assuming runway edge lights & threshold light; centreline lights even better. The question was finishing the approach after an NPA flown by autopilot and then manual from minimum. One would trust that at MDA the approach had been flown with accuracy to put you on glide path at MDA, and it was a CDA, not a dive & drive with level segment. If so: when visual disconnect and do very little. Pick the visual touchdown point and keep it fixed in the window. Know your attitude for the required glide angle. V/S = 5 x ground speed +50. As long as it is within +/-100fpm (for a jet) that's OK when visual. Know your power setting. If it was correct, on speed at MDA leave well alone. It is a common human trait to raise the nose & increase power when visual. Don't, if not necessary, but it is an unconscious action. Gentle breaths on the controls, stay relaxed and don't squeeze to death the controls. Short runway; a tendency to flare early & float. Once again, use normal correct flare technique.
If you are visual at low level, then all this DME and arcs & rings stuff is not helpful. You are visual and starting at a correct point in space. Don't over complicate it. KISS.
If you are visual at low level, then all this DME and arcs & rings stuff is not helpful. You are visual and starting at a correct point in space. Don't over complicate it. KISS.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 420
Likes: 3
From: In the Old Folks' Home
It's Refreshing
It is refreshing (and amazing) that PPrUNers are actually talking about flying the airplane rather than pushing buttons. Keep it up. Maybe the newbies will learn something. 
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 39
From: Wanderlust
Captain_BH, RAT 5
With Airbus FPV so many calculations are not necessary. There are two ways of doing the approach:
1. Old fashioned way point the nose at the threshold and keep the FPV(bird) at three degrees. Since it is flight path it will take care of the required ROD. Keep the ATHR.
2. FMGS way use Radial in function make direct to RW threshold and insert the radial in. That will align the yoyo(VDev) to threshold and use it as GS.
Simple.
With Airbus FPV so many calculations are not necessary. There are two ways of doing the approach:
1. Old fashioned way point the nose at the threshold and keep the FPV(bird) at three degrees. Since it is flight path it will take care of the required ROD. Keep the ATHR.
2. FMGS way use Radial in function make direct to RW threshold and insert the radial in. That will align the yoyo(VDev) to threshold and use it as GS.
Simple.
