Lvp
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: italy
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lvp
Hi guys,
I have a doubt about low vis procedure.
If my company is restricted to cat 1, which is my take off minima?
It could be 400m or 200m or 150m etc.... Let me know.
My plane is airbus.
Danke
Michelda
I have a doubt about low vis procedure.
If my company is restricted to cat 1, which is my take off minima?
It could be 400m or 200m or 150m etc.... Let me know.
My plane is airbus.
Danke
Michelda
Hi Michelda,
Firstly, I assume that you are not kidding.
Secondly, I salute your desire to improve your knowledge of flight operations, well done for asking!
If you are operating an Airbus in an Air Transport environment (e.g. EU Ops or CFR 14.121) your operator/employer should provide you with take-off minima for each airport that you operate from. If you are operating privately, the PIC is responsible for determining appropriate figures.
The minimum RVR generally depends on the quality and quantity of runway edge and centreline marking or lighting. It is normally listed on the 'Airport diagram' of the Jeppesen or Navtech chart.
To give you some guidance, I offer the following summary which I wrote (with help from another) for a private jet operator:
TAKE-OFF MINIMA:
The basic RVR minima are 400m/400m/adv, where 'adv' means 'advisory'.
'Advisory' means that the pilot takes note of the reported RVR, but that section of the runway is not relevant for the take-off in question.
NOTE 1: Special training is required for a take-off in less than 400m RVR.
NOTE 2: Low Visibility Procedures (LVPs) must be in force for take-off with RVR below 400m.
NOTE 3: With special training and LVPs in force, the absolute minima are 150m/150m/adv; however, these may be further reduced if special equipment is fitted and used (PVD, HUD,....)
NOTE 4: A Take-off alternate (within 1 hour at single-engine cruise speed in still air) is required if the RVR is below landing minima.
The minimum RVR depends on the runway lighting/marking and is listed on the Jeppesen airport diagram. This applies to all relevant sectors: Touch Down Zone (TDZ), mid-point, stop-end (not usually relevant).
If an airport does not have RVR equipment, this will be reflected in the higher take-off minima (listed as a met vis.) on the Jeppesen airport diagram.
If single elements of the RVR system have failed, the following apply:
• If the TDZ has failed, the pilot can assess the TDZ visibility himself when he lines up;
• If the mid-point has failed, you can substitute the stop-end figure in its place; and
• If the stop-end has failed, it doesn’t matter as it is not usually ‘relevant’ anyway.
To assess RVR, the pilot can count how many runway lights are visible.
• Runway edge lights generally have a spacing of 60m.
• Runway centreline lights generally have a spacing of 15m (30m in some cases).
Hope this helps,
Eckhard
Firstly, I assume that you are not kidding.
Secondly, I salute your desire to improve your knowledge of flight operations, well done for asking!
If you are operating an Airbus in an Air Transport environment (e.g. EU Ops or CFR 14.121) your operator/employer should provide you with take-off minima for each airport that you operate from. If you are operating privately, the PIC is responsible for determining appropriate figures.
The minimum RVR generally depends on the quality and quantity of runway edge and centreline marking or lighting. It is normally listed on the 'Airport diagram' of the Jeppesen or Navtech chart.
To give you some guidance, I offer the following summary which I wrote (with help from another) for a private jet operator:
TAKE-OFF MINIMA:
The basic RVR minima are 400m/400m/adv, where 'adv' means 'advisory'.
'Advisory' means that the pilot takes note of the reported RVR, but that section of the runway is not relevant for the take-off in question.
NOTE 1: Special training is required for a take-off in less than 400m RVR.
NOTE 2: Low Visibility Procedures (LVPs) must be in force for take-off with RVR below 400m.
NOTE 3: With special training and LVPs in force, the absolute minima are 150m/150m/adv; however, these may be further reduced if special equipment is fitted and used (PVD, HUD,....)
NOTE 4: A Take-off alternate (within 1 hour at single-engine cruise speed in still air) is required if the RVR is below landing minima.
The minimum RVR depends on the runway lighting/marking and is listed on the Jeppesen airport diagram. This applies to all relevant sectors: Touch Down Zone (TDZ), mid-point, stop-end (not usually relevant).
If an airport does not have RVR equipment, this will be reflected in the higher take-off minima (listed as a met vis.) on the Jeppesen airport diagram.
If single elements of the RVR system have failed, the following apply:
• If the TDZ has failed, the pilot can assess the TDZ visibility himself when he lines up;
• If the mid-point has failed, you can substitute the stop-end figure in its place; and
• If the stop-end has failed, it doesn’t matter as it is not usually ‘relevant’ anyway.
To assess RVR, the pilot can count how many runway lights are visible.
• Runway edge lights generally have a spacing of 60m.
• Runway centreline lights generally have a spacing of 15m (30m in some cases).
Hope this helps,
Eckhard
Hi Hetfield,
Nothing personal old bean, but I just took the view that Michelda was asking a genuine question and I don't think he would have found your response particularly helpful.
You are quite justified in your observation that this is 'basic knowledge'; however, it has been my experience that many professional pilots (I count myself among them) lack so-called 'basic knowledge' because they may have been poorly trained, missed a particular lesson, have a weakness in one or more subject areas (electrics anyone?) and/or have been discouraged from asking questions for fear of appearing 'unprofessional', when in fact the exact opposite should be the case!
There is an interesting article in this month's 'Flying' magazine, written by the new editor, which expands on this exact topic.
If our colleagues can't ask an honest question here for fear of being shot down, where else should they ask it? In the bar?
By the way, what does p2f mean?
Kind regards,
Eckhard
Nothing personal old bean, but I just took the view that Michelda was asking a genuine question and I don't think he would have found your response particularly helpful.
You are quite justified in your observation that this is 'basic knowledge'; however, it has been my experience that many professional pilots (I count myself among them) lack so-called 'basic knowledge' because they may have been poorly trained, missed a particular lesson, have a weakness in one or more subject areas (electrics anyone?) and/or have been discouraged from asking questions for fear of appearing 'unprofessional', when in fact the exact opposite should be the case!
There is an interesting article in this month's 'Flying' magazine, written by the new editor, which expands on this exact topic.
If our colleagues can't ask an honest question here for fear of being shot down, where else should they ask it? In the bar?
By the way, what does p2f mean?
Kind regards,
Eckhard
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Choroni, sometimes
Posts: 1,974
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay, maybe it was a bit harsh.
But a serious operator should have a manual for these questions/regulations. If this is not the case, sorry michelda.
p2f: = pay to fly
But a serious operator should have a manual for these questions/regulations. If this is not the case, sorry michelda.
p2f: = pay to fly
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: italy
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you eckhard
I don' t know anything about Faa but I know quite well euops. I have never finded where is writen for any training for rvr below 400. I find that you need training when rvr is below 150 (200 for cat d).
Can you give me some more information?
Thanks for your help
Dear hetfield
I have an ops manual and also a tre number. If you need it call me.....
I don' t know anything about Faa but I know quite well euops. I have never finded where is writen for any training for rvr below 400. I find that you need training when rvr is below 150 (200 for cat d).
Can you give me some more information?
Thanks for your help
Dear hetfield
I have an ops manual and also a tre number. If you need it call me.....
Hi Michelda,
I only have easy access to JAR-OPS 1 (not EU-OPS), but I think that in this case the two codes are pretty similar. Here are some extracts (my bold)
JAR-OPS 1 Subpart E
JAR-OPS 1.435 Terminology
(2) Low Visibility Procedures (LVP).
Procedures applied at an aerodrome for the
purpose of ensuring safe operations during
Category II and III approaches and Low Visibility
Take-offs.
(3) Low Visibility Take-Off (LVTO). A
take-off where the Runway Visual Range (RVR)
is less than 400 m.
JAR-OPS 1.450 Low visibility operations –
Training and Qualifications
(See Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS
1.450)
(a) An operator shall ensure that, prior to
conducting Low Visibility Take-Off, Category II
and III operations:
(1) Each flight crew member:
(i) Completes the training and
checking requirements prescribed in
Appendix 1 including Flight Simulator
training in operating to the limiting values
of RVR and Decision Height appropriate to
the operator’s Category II/III approval; and
(ii) Is qualified in accordance with
Appendix 1;
(2) The training and checking is
conducted in accordance with a detailed syllabus
approved by the Authority and included in the
Operations Manual. This training is in addition to
that prescribed in Subpart N; and
(3) The flight crew qualification is
specific to the operation and the aeroplane type.
and later on...
JAR-OPS 1.455 Low visibility operations –
Operating Procedures
(See Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS
1.455)
(3) The flight crew members are properly
qualified prior to commencing a Low Visibility
Take-off in an RVR of less than 150 m (Category
A, B and C aeroplanes) or 200 m (Cat D
aeroplanes) or a Category II or III approach.
So you see that according to JAR-OPS 1, you need some training for a take-off in less than 400m RVR and even more training for a take-off in less than 150/200m RVR.
I'm fairly sure that the EU-OPS requirements are very similar.
Hope this helps,
Eckhard
I only have easy access to JAR-OPS 1 (not EU-OPS), but I think that in this case the two codes are pretty similar. Here are some extracts (my bold)
JAR-OPS 1 Subpart E
JAR-OPS 1.435 Terminology
(2) Low Visibility Procedures (LVP).
Procedures applied at an aerodrome for the
purpose of ensuring safe operations during
Category II and III approaches and Low Visibility
Take-offs.
(3) Low Visibility Take-Off (LVTO). A
take-off where the Runway Visual Range (RVR)
is less than 400 m.
JAR-OPS 1.450 Low visibility operations –
Training and Qualifications
(See Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS
1.450)
(a) An operator shall ensure that, prior to
conducting Low Visibility Take-Off, Category II
and III operations:
(1) Each flight crew member:
(i) Completes the training and
checking requirements prescribed in
Appendix 1 including Flight Simulator
training in operating to the limiting values
of RVR and Decision Height appropriate to
the operator’s Category II/III approval; and
(ii) Is qualified in accordance with
Appendix 1;
(2) The training and checking is
conducted in accordance with a detailed syllabus
approved by the Authority and included in the
Operations Manual. This training is in addition to
that prescribed in Subpart N; and
(3) The flight crew qualification is
specific to the operation and the aeroplane type.
and later on...
JAR-OPS 1.455 Low visibility operations –
Operating Procedures
(See Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS
1.455)
(3) The flight crew members are properly
qualified prior to commencing a Low Visibility
Take-off in an RVR of less than 150 m (Category
A, B and C aeroplanes) or 200 m (Cat D
aeroplanes) or a Category II or III approach.
So you see that according to JAR-OPS 1, you need some training for a take-off in less than 400m RVR and even more training for a take-off in less than 150/200m RVR.
I'm fairly sure that the EU-OPS requirements are very similar.
Hope this helps,
Eckhard
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: italy
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Eckhard
Thanks for your answer. Tomorrow I ll check on euops.... But I gess you are right.
Another question. If for any reason you are cat 1 (es mel) , do you Think you Can take off with rvr below 400m?
Thanks again
Michelda
Thanks for your answer. Tomorrow I ll check on euops.... But I gess you are right.
Another question. If for any reason you are cat 1 (es mel) , do you Think you Can take off with rvr below 400m?
Thanks again
Michelda
I think that Cat 1 is an 'approach and landing' category and therefore it is not relevant to take-off.
If your LVTO (RVR below 400m) are based on having certain aircraft equipment installed and serviceable (unlikely), then the MEL should restrict you to take-offs with RVR above 400m in the event of unserviceabilities.
If the MEL restricts the appraoch category to Cat 1, then the take-off is unaffected because there are no 'categories' for take-off.
If certain airport lighting installations are unserviceable, then the take-off minima may increase. This should be indicated on the Jepp/Navtech airport diagram. A generic table is here: (sorry for the bad formatting)
Facilities RVR/Visibility
Nil (Day only) 500 m
Runway edge lighting
and/or centreline marking 250/300 m
Runway edge and
centreline lighting 200/250 m
Runway edge and
centreline lighting and
multiple RVR information 150/200 m
Note 1: The higher values apply to Category D
aeroplanes.
Note 2: For night operations at least runway
edge and runway end lights are required.
Note 3: The reported RVR/Visibility value
representative of the initial part of the
take-off run can be replaced by pilot
assessment.
Note 4: The required RVR value must be
achieved for all of the relevant RVR
reporting points with the exception
given in Note 3 above.
If your LVTO (RVR below 400m) are based on having certain aircraft equipment installed and serviceable (unlikely), then the MEL should restrict you to take-offs with RVR above 400m in the event of unserviceabilities.
If the MEL restricts the appraoch category to Cat 1, then the take-off is unaffected because there are no 'categories' for take-off.
If certain airport lighting installations are unserviceable, then the take-off minima may increase. This should be indicated on the Jepp/Navtech airport diagram. A generic table is here: (sorry for the bad formatting)
Facilities RVR/Visibility
Nil (Day only) 500 m
Runway edge lighting
and/or centreline marking 250/300 m
Runway edge and
centreline lighting 200/250 m
Runway edge and
centreline lighting and
multiple RVR information 150/200 m
Note 1: The higher values apply to Category D
aeroplanes.
Note 2: For night operations at least runway
edge and runway end lights are required.
Note 3: The reported RVR/Visibility value
representative of the initial part of the
take-off run can be replaced by pilot
assessment.
Note 4: The required RVR value must be
achieved for all of the relevant RVR
reporting points with the exception
given in Note 3 above.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: sky
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes you can if you have :
-the training for take-off in less than 400m RVR (Captain must be PF)
-at least the runway edge lighting and/or centreline marking
-LVP must be in force or only 1 traffic is moving on the movement area
-a take-off alternate within 1 hour at single-engine is suitable (wx above cat1 minima)
-the training for take-off in less than 400m RVR (Captain must be PF)
-at least the runway edge lighting and/or centreline marking
-LVP must be in force or only 1 traffic is moving on the movement area
-a take-off alternate within 1 hour at single-engine is suitable (wx above cat1 minima)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Poland
Age: 37
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
-LVP must be in force or only 1 traffic is moving on the movement area
Where can I find it? I checked eu-ops and there is not a single word about this matter. As far as I know you can't depart with RVR below 400 m without LVP in force under EU regulation.
Thanks
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Poland
Age: 37
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's the only thing I could find: http://www.jaa.nl/publications/4-3%20Lflt-7.pdf
Is this still valid? It's from 98'. Moreover it's for JAR-OPS so can you change EU-OPS SOP according to this Temporary Guidance Leaflet? Does anyone know airline using this procedure?
Is this still valid? It's from 98'. Moreover it's for JAR-OPS so can you change EU-OPS SOP according to this Temporary Guidance Leaflet? Does anyone know airline using this procedure?
