Engine fire warning on the ground? Evacuation?
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Engine fire warning on the ground? Evacuation?
Is it allowed to discharge two bottle without 30 second interval in case of engine fire on the ground in boeing737? FCTM b737 page 8.12? Give me advise please, how do you make decision for evacuation in case of RTO due to engine fire? Thank you!!!
You seem to have posed two questions here, one having to do with discharging a second fire bottle and the other having to do with evacuation based on an on-ground fire
I see no harm in discharging a fire bottle on the ground, seeing as it shuts off the fuel to the engine, causes any air leaks or fire to subside and in most cases will extinguish a real fire confined to a nacelle. At the same time you sure have no need of engine power while stoppd on the ground.
The idea about waiting before discharging a second bottle is to determine if the first one made the problem go away giving one a chance to think what do do next (stick your head out the window, page the crew in the back etc.).
Based on the results of the above, now consider an evacuation.
I'll now take a deep breath and see what others have to say about this.
I see no harm in discharging a fire bottle on the ground, seeing as it shuts off the fuel to the engine, causes any air leaks or fire to subside and in most cases will extinguish a real fire confined to a nacelle. At the same time you sure have no need of engine power while stoppd on the ground.
The idea about waiting before discharging a second bottle is to determine if the first one made the problem go away giving one a chance to think what do do next (stick your head out the window, page the crew in the back etc.).
Based on the results of the above, now consider an evacuation.
I'll now take a deep breath and see what others have to say about this.
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seeing as it shuts off the fuel to the engine
There is no time restriction on firing the second bottle. Evacuation - that is what you are paid to decide.
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If an engine fire warning light is NOT illuminated, but a fire indication exists or a fire is reported in or near an engine, discharge BOTH fire bottles.
As for your question in regards to evacuate or not, it is a tough call. You need to give it careful thought wether to evacuate or not, when in doubt, evacuate.
As Boeing points out, use all relevant sources to confirm fire is out...Make sure the airplane is parked in a position, that if the fire relights, it is on the downwind side....
In my 737 ops manual in the chapter concerning evacuation - bottle discharge:
"Rotate and hold fire switches until the bottle discharge lights illuminate. In case of eng fire, discharge BOTH bottles in affected engine. Wait 30 seconds before discharging the second bottle in the affected engine as the time that the agent (halon) is on the fire is more important than the amount of agent on the fire."
"Rotate and hold fire switches until the bottle discharge lights illuminate. In case of eng fire, discharge BOTH bottles in affected engine. Wait 30 seconds before discharging the second bottle in the affected engine as the time that the agent (halon) is on the fire is more important than the amount of agent on the fire."
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Pulling the fire switch does indeed cut fuel supply to the engine. The switch has to be pulled to arm the bottle, ergo, the fuel is cut off, no?
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As has been stated, the Halon 1301 used is a gaseous extinguishing agent. It works by being heavy and inert: it sits around and prevents oxygen from reaching the fire while absorbing the heat. Very little of it should chemically react.
The nacelle has been engineered to maintain the proper concentration. It should work a bit better on the ground since you're not moving and the atmospheric pressure is higher. Since its 5 times denser than air, it will stick around for minutes.
If you fire the second bottle too early, all you'll do is push out the existing Halon to the atmosphere and waste it. Another concern is that because how Halon absorbs heat, when it touches hot components they will rapidly cool and cause thermal shock and major engine damage.
I'd say to go ahead and pull the handles, but as the checklist says, pilot judgement is necessary before the first bottle. Wait 30 seconds for the second bottle, but evacuate in the meantime if necessary.
The nacelle has been engineered to maintain the proper concentration. It should work a bit better on the ground since you're not moving and the atmospheric pressure is higher. Since its 5 times denser than air, it will stick around for minutes.
If you fire the second bottle too early, all you'll do is push out the existing Halon to the atmosphere and waste it. Another concern is that because how Halon absorbs heat, when it touches hot components they will rapidly cool and cause thermal shock and major engine damage.
I'd say to go ahead and pull the handles, but as the checklist says, pilot judgement is necessary before the first bottle. Wait 30 seconds for the second bottle, but evacuate in the meantime if necessary.
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This was actually queried at a fairly high level (I think it was in BA) and the word was there is no need to wait 30 seconds on the ground. I suspect, reivilo, that we are looking at company specific OMs , as my last company SPECIFICALLY detailed that you do not need to wait. We follow the book (subject to our discretion, of course!)
Pmonkey - correct, but the words were "discharging a fire bottle on the ground, seeing as it shuts off the fuel to the engine" - when the fuel is already off.
Incidentally, the logic in discharging both bottles when there is evidence of a fire in the vicinity is to avoid the bottles exploding in any fire and thus if you abort for some non-fire related event you need to consider before firing the bottles. The same reason goes for discharging the APU bottle.
Pmonkey - correct, but the words were "discharging a fire bottle on the ground, seeing as it shuts off the fuel to the engine" - when the fuel is already off.
Incidentally, the logic in discharging both bottles when there is evidence of a fire in the vicinity is to avoid the bottles exploding in any fire and thus if you abort for some non-fire related event you need to consider before firing the bottles. The same reason goes for discharging the APU bottle.
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Leaving aside type specifics, waiting 30s to discharge a second bottle with a Fire on the Ground seems "unwise"? Surely that is delaying the Evacuation by up to 30s?
The company I work for's bottom line is you evacuate for 'Any Confirmed Unextinquished Fire'. That can be interpreted in a number of ways, but my thinking is along the lines of:
As ever, there is no "right" and "wrong". You make the decision, and unless it is patently wrong given the info you had at the time, you should be supported. Whether a more optimal answer subsequently becomes apparent is not too relevant - you can only act on the info and training at that time. pPrune will of course hang you, but what's new
NoD
The company I work for's bottom line is you evacuate for 'Any Confirmed Unextinquished Fire'. That can be interpreted in a number of ways, but my thinking is along the lines of:
- A Fire Warning (alone) is not Confirmed
- 'Unextinquished' is at the (final) point of the Evac decision.
As ever, there is no "right" and "wrong". You make the decision, and unless it is patently wrong given the info you had at the time, you should be supported. Whether a more optimal answer subsequently becomes apparent is not too relevant - you can only act on the info and training at that time. pPrune will of course hang you, but what's new
NoD
...Halon 1301 used is a gaseous extinguishing agent. It works by being heavy and inert: it sits around and prevents oxygen from reaching the fire while absorbing the heat. Very little of it should chemically react.
See: SKYbrary - Halon Fire Extinguishers
Originally Posted by BOAC
I suspect, reivilo, that we are looking at company specific OMs , as my last company SPECIFICALLY detailed that you do not need to wait. We follow the book (subject to our discretion, of course!)
Originally Posted by NigelOnDraft
Leaving aside type specifics, waiting 30s to discharge a second bottle with a Fire on the Ground seems "unwise"? Surely that is delaying the Evacuation by up to 30s?
7 Engine start levers (both) . . . . . CUTOFF
8 Advise the cabin to evacuate.
9 Advise the tower.
10 Engine and APU fire switches (all) . . . . Override and pull
11 If an engine or APU fire warning occurs: Illuminated fire switch . . . . . . . . . . Rotate to the stop and hold for 1 second
8 Advise the cabin to evacuate.
9 Advise the tower.
10 Engine and APU fire switches (all) . . . . Override and pull
11 If an engine or APU fire warning occurs: Illuminated fire switch . . . . . . . . . . Rotate to the stop and hold for 1 second
Last edited by reivilo; 24th Sep 2010 at 10:45.
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Incidentally, the logic in discharging both bottles when there is evidence of a fire in the vicinity is to avoid the bottles exploding in any fire
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I'm not a chemist but I was under the impression that the exact opposite was the case: the whole effectiveness of halon-like suppressants comes from their ability to interfere with combustion processes at the atomic level, once broken down by heat. The cooling/smothering effects are welcome but secondary...
The new clean agents, Novec 1230 and FM-200 don't have any bromine, iodine or chlorine and are even heavier than Halon. The former of which looks like it's going to replace airframe halon completely on the A350.
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Another simple question... RTO after engine fire warning in low visibility, information from ATC and nearby aircraft conforming fire is impossible to receive, parking brake is set, cabin crew informed. Engine fire memory action completed by captain or f/o?
Second bottle discharged after 30 sec interval?
What procedures of your company say?
Thank you!!!
Second bottle discharged after 30 sec interval?
What procedures of your company say?
Thank you!!!
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Engine fire on ground after RTO in low Vis:Recall items and discharge BOTH bottles WITHOUT waiting 30 secs.
I believe the 30 secs in the air is in case you discharge one and the fire signal stops you may keep the second bottle in case the fire comes back....on the ground if the fire comes back after both bottles discharged..evacuate.
If still sign of fire :Parking Brake set,Speed brake stow,Call for flaps 40 then QRH checklist.
When time comes to call for evacuation, check fire situation one last time(may have extinguished by then).
Fo will advise tower of evacuation and approximate position for fire rescue.
Capt becomes PF if stop call is made hence he performs recall items.
I believe the 30 secs in the air is in case you discharge one and the fire signal stops you may keep the second bottle in case the fire comes back....on the ground if the fire comes back after both bottles discharged..evacuate.
If still sign of fire :Parking Brake set,Speed brake stow,Call for flaps 40 then QRH checklist.
When time comes to call for evacuation, check fire situation one last time(may have extinguished by then).
Fo will advise tower of evacuation and approximate position for fire rescue.
Capt becomes PF if stop call is made hence he performs recall items.