Flaps + Speedbrakes on Approach?
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,132
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From: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Aviophage
You clearly believe in ideals on your planet.
It's a shame that you don't inhabit the same reality as the rest of us where things conspire to tinker with the best laid plans, be it the weather, ATC or whatever.
I worship you as an aviation God
You clearly believe in ideals on your planet.
It's a shame that you don't inhabit the same reality as the rest of us where things conspire to tinker with the best laid plans, be it the weather, ATC or whatever.
I worship you as an aviation God
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 34
From: London,England
Excuse me, like a majority of commercial pilots, I am teetotal
10 miles out going down the glide in a 319 with no headwind, ATC now want 160 to 4 miles, thrust will almost certainly already be at idle. Speedbrakes for a few seconds or gear, your call. I would say that 50% of the 319 approaches I make into LHR require the use of speedbrake to promptly comply with ATC speed requests. You don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about.
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 615
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From: Middle England
Another fantastic post from Aviophage. Much like the drivel on the A320 beacon thread.....he's right, anyone that does anything different is wrong.
Perhaps he could explain why Airbus, Boeing etc put speed-brakes on aircraft in the first place? Clearly they are not needed after all.
Perhaps he could explain why Airbus, Boeing etc put speed-brakes on aircraft in the first place? Clearly they are not needed after all.
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Aviophage
You aren't the NWA pilot who, when asked by the ATCO to slow and descend, answered back, "the speed brakes are for my mistakes, NOT YOURS!"?
GF
You aren't the NWA pilot who, when asked by the ATCO to slow and descend, answered back, "the speed brakes are for my mistakes, NOT YOURS!"?
GF
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,369
Likes: 3
From: UK.
I know that this is a bit confrontational for Tech Log but I'm 68 and I thought all the anti speed brake dinosaurs were extinct.
They are there to be used - in accordance with the flying manual.
Good to see.
Re stall margins: a competent pilot would not be pulling a handful of speedbrake close to target speed.
Getting back to the question, yes, some types permit speed brake with flap some did not and there may be a max flap setting for its use. As has been said, on the final approach it is more likely to be roll-assist.
They are there to be used - in accordance with the flying manual.
He may then re-extend the speedbrakes, if necessary. The landing gear may always be extended out of sequence to aid deceleration."
Re stall margins: a competent pilot would not be pulling a handful of speedbrake close to target speed.
Getting back to the question, yes, some types permit speed brake with flap some did not and there may be a max flap setting for its use. As has been said, on the final approach it is more likely to be roll-assist.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 390
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From: Scotland
Why all those reservation about the speedbrakes? If it's there, use it when you need to. It doesn't make you a bad pilot. Even the best planned approach can result in the use of speedbrakes. Even the ones you've done a hundred times.
Then about buffet. We fly the E170/190 into LCY and use the Steep Approach funtion which commands the number 4 and 5 outer wing spoilers to offset slightly while the control column is in a neutral position, creating the drag required to increase the rate of descent. However, especially on a light E190 it creates a lot of buffet. Far 'worse' than normal use during full deployment inflight. I've done an empty ferry flight and it was so bad that you're eyes had difficulty focussing on the glareshield due to the vibration.
Then about buffet. We fly the E170/190 into LCY and use the Steep Approach funtion which commands the number 4 and 5 outer wing spoilers to offset slightly while the control column is in a neutral position, creating the drag required to increase the rate of descent. However, especially on a light E190 it creates a lot of buffet. Far 'worse' than normal use during full deployment inflight. I've done an empty ferry flight and it was so bad that you're eyes had difficulty focussing on the glareshield due to the vibration.
Aviator Extraordinaire
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,396
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From: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Some aircraft you cannot use the speedbrakes/spoilers with any flaps extended. Such as the 727. The primary reason was due to the sink rate of the 727 with flaps 30, let alone flaps 40, that would develop with the combination. There is no structural reason.
And yes, I did on a few occasions use the spoilers with flaps 30 in 727, as long as you remained aware of the sink rate and reacted according you did not have any problems.
One thing we used to do in the sim during recurrency training was after we had finished all the requirements, the instructor would place us at the outer marker at 10,000, 250kts at LAX and tell us to see if we could land without changing headings. You can do it, believe it or not.
First put the gear down while extending the spoilers, reverse all three engines and then start putting the flaps down on speed. You end up with a hell of deck angle, trust me. The closest to the end of the runway I ever landed was about 2,000 feet past the end of the runway.
Now, there is no way on earth I'd try that in a real 727. You can really trust me on this.
Oh, one other reason that one would have the speedbrake/spoiler extended with flaps down in other aircraft than the 727 would be to keep the engines spooled up for adequate bleed air flow for anti-icing in icing conditions.
And yes, I did on a few occasions use the spoilers with flaps 30 in 727, as long as you remained aware of the sink rate and reacted according you did not have any problems.
One thing we used to do in the sim during recurrency training was after we had finished all the requirements, the instructor would place us at the outer marker at 10,000, 250kts at LAX and tell us to see if we could land without changing headings. You can do it, believe it or not.
First put the gear down while extending the spoilers, reverse all three engines and then start putting the flaps down on speed. You end up with a hell of deck angle, trust me. The closest to the end of the runway I ever landed was about 2,000 feet past the end of the runway.
Now, there is no way on earth I'd try that in a real 727. You can really trust me on this.
Oh, one other reason that one would have the speedbrake/spoiler extended with flaps down in other aircraft than the 727 would be to keep the engines spooled up for adequate bleed air flow for anti-icing in icing conditions.
Last edited by con-pilot; 25th August 2010 at 19:33.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Speed brakes with flaps extended, differ by type.
B707, not allowed
L1011, not recommended.
B767, no restriction that I am aware of.
So, unlike sox you might purchase in a department store, one size does not fit all.
Simple, really.
IF in doubt, RTFB.
B707, not allowed
L1011, not recommended.
B767, no restriction that I am aware of.
So, unlike sox you might purchase in a department store, one size does not fit all.
Simple, really.
IF in doubt, RTFB.
Bottums Up
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 3,440
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From: dunnunda
To add to 411A, the Douglas/Boeing 717 prohibits the use of speed brake with Flaps at 20 degrees or more (flap settings available 13/18/25/40). From a practical perspective, they're damn near useless below about 250 kias any how.
Person Of Interest
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 842
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From: Keystone Heights, Florida
Ever flown into Burbank, ILS RWY 08????
Maintain 3'000 until passing Van Nyes, keep your speed up, cleared to land...
Can't do it all...at this point, time to abandon the approach and try again...just ask SWA...
Not a slam on ATC, that's just the way it is there...be smart or pump your fuel from the CITGO station outside the blast fence...
P.S. ILS Rwy 08 has a 250' DA...
Maintain 3'000 until passing Van Nyes, keep your speed up, cleared to land...
Can't do it all...at this point, time to abandon the approach and try again...just ask SWA...
Not a slam on ATC, that's just the way it is there...be smart or pump your fuel from the CITGO station outside the blast fence...
P.S. ILS Rwy 08 has a 250' DA...
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 46
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From: Somewhere on the ND
2) They increase the stall speed and make Vref no longer valid as a guide to 'safe' margins
Speedbrake + flap is allowed on the A320 except for flap full. If it's allowed and necessary, not using it is a poor choice. It's a flight control, use it as such. Whatever is necessary (within SOP's) to be stabilised by 1000/500' should be done.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 68
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From: N1035.5W06700.1
Speedbrake usage B737
Using speedbrakes with more than Flaps 5 (737)/Flap 1 (A320) is discouraged due to buffet and increased stall speed and never use speedbrakes below 1000' - completely agree.
1000' AGL as the maximum height to use it (limitations section).
At least on the EFIS series, Denti can enlighten us with the NG's
Happy Landings!!!
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,540
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From: self isolating
A very common situation is being a bit over the flap 2 speed on approach, but too far out to justify gear, whack a bit of the old Geneva lever out to reduce the speed, extend flap 2 and everything is happy days .
I challenge Aviophage to a battle of the internets!
.I challenge Aviophage to a battle of the internets!
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 451
Likes: 2
From: USA
It's best to follow SOP....
It's best to follow SOP. One very common error I used to see among less-experienced types was to extend flaps at or near Vfe. While this does help in slowing down/getting down at higher flap settings, it is pretty much useless at the initial flap settings. (All you're really doing is beating up the flaps/slats....not really adding much drag.)
Those of us who fly (in my case, 'used to fly') the 320, know the SOP....speed brake is good down to/including FLAPS 1. "Not recommended" FLAPS 2 or more. Auto-retract with FLPAS FULL on the 319/320, FLAPS 3 on the 321.
Gear can, of course, be extended at 250 KIAS (below FL250
) but preferably at or below 220 KIAS to save gear door wear and tear...and to minimize soiled pants among passengers. Gear works good to add drag.
Once deployed, it's cumbersome to retract the gear.....once you've realized that you've thrown out the gear too early....now, you're having to add thrust earlier than you wanted. (I've never made that mistake!
)
(Joking, of course.)
Granted, the speed brakes work better at high speeds (duh!), but will also work (to a much lesser extent) at low speeds. Still better than working out flaps/slats at Vfe.
Used to fly with a captain on the 727 who refused to give me flaps until I was exactly at the SOP flap speed schedule. He told me if I had planned my descent and approach better, I wouldn't have this problem.
While everyone hated to fly with this guy, he did teach me to better plan my descents. (Actually, he was on hell of a pilot. I learned a lot from him.....once I got past the yelling, screaming, and smart-assed comments.)
So, again, it's best to follow the SOP. Believe it or not, the guys who write this stuff, generally know more about it than you do. (There are exceptions...but few.) SOP keeps you out of trouble. I've found the SOP, if valid, worked to my advantage.
"Sorry Captain XXXX (the chief pilot), but I was merely following the SOP." This doesn't give him much ammunition to shoot you with...does it?
Fly safe,
PantLoad
Those of us who fly (in my case, 'used to fly') the 320, know the SOP....speed brake is good down to/including FLAPS 1. "Not recommended" FLAPS 2 or more. Auto-retract with FLPAS FULL on the 319/320, FLAPS 3 on the 321.
Gear can, of course, be extended at 250 KIAS (below FL250
) but preferably at or below 220 KIAS to save gear door wear and tear...and to minimize soiled pants among passengers. Gear works good to add drag. Once deployed, it's cumbersome to retract the gear.....once you've realized that you've thrown out the gear too early....now, you're having to add thrust earlier than you wanted. (I've never made that mistake!
)(Joking, of course.)
Granted, the speed brakes work better at high speeds (duh!), but will also work (to a much lesser extent) at low speeds. Still better than working out flaps/slats at Vfe.
Used to fly with a captain on the 727 who refused to give me flaps until I was exactly at the SOP flap speed schedule. He told me if I had planned my descent and approach better, I wouldn't have this problem.
While everyone hated to fly with this guy, he did teach me to better plan my descents. (Actually, he was on hell of a pilot. I learned a lot from him.....once I got past the yelling, screaming, and smart-assed comments.)
So, again, it's best to follow the SOP. Believe it or not, the guys who write this stuff, generally know more about it than you do. (There are exceptions...but few.) SOP keeps you out of trouble. I've found the SOP, if valid, worked to my advantage.
"Sorry Captain XXXX (the chief pilot), but I was merely following the SOP." This doesn't give him much ammunition to shoot you with...does it?
Fly safe,
PantLoad