Flaps + Speedbrakes on Approach?
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Flaps + Speedbrakes on Approach?
I'm really sorry if this question is in the wrong place, but it is a tech based question that might not be picked up if I put in anywhere else.
I was on an A320 coming into EGLL on Monday afternoon about 15.15. As we started down the glide slope I could see the wing and became fascinated by the config. It looked like we had flaps1 and the speedbrakes were at 45 degrees. Obviously as we got further down the glide slope and added more flaps the speedbrakes dropped. But as I've never seen (or never noticed!) speed brakes with flaps on approach before, I just thought I'd ask about it. It was obviously everything was perfectly under control and we made the most comfortable landing from a pax point of view I've ever experienced - As we got off as well as thanking the cabin crew I asked them to thank the pilots as well which I usually forget to do. So I just wanted to ask in what circumstances that initial config might be used. Might it be weather related? It certainly wasn't the best of weather and we'd had a weather related 15 minute hold, or might it be the need to get down quick and 'get off' quick this being EGLL and a lot of other aircraft coming in behind us? Or a combination of these?
As you can guess I'm not a pilot, and I guess for you this would be as normal as you could get, but I was fascinated by it.
I was on an A320 coming into EGLL on Monday afternoon about 15.15. As we started down the glide slope I could see the wing and became fascinated by the config. It looked like we had flaps1 and the speedbrakes were at 45 degrees. Obviously as we got further down the glide slope and added more flaps the speedbrakes dropped. But as I've never seen (or never noticed!) speed brakes with flaps on approach before, I just thought I'd ask about it. It was obviously everything was perfectly under control and we made the most comfortable landing from a pax point of view I've ever experienced - As we got off as well as thanking the cabin crew I asked them to thank the pilots as well which I usually forget to do. So I just wanted to ask in what circumstances that initial config might be used. Might it be weather related? It certainly wasn't the best of weather and we'd had a weather related 15 minute hold, or might it be the need to get down quick and 'get off' quick this being EGLL and a lot of other aircraft coming in behind us? Or a combination of these?
As you can guess I'm not a pilot, and I guess for you this would be as normal as you could get, but I was fascinated by it.
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Can't speak directly for the Airbus but sounds like they were just trying to slow down on approach - perhaps due to an ATC speed request or in order to get below a flap limitation speed to extend further flaps.
Using speedbrake at low speeds has little effect but it can help if you're not far off the desired speed and might save dropping the gear early and dragging it in. However speedbrakes with flaps out does cause increased airframe vibration and isn't recommended with larger flap settings which is probably why they were retracted as the flaps were extended further.
Using speedbrake at low speeds has little effect but it can help if you're not far off the desired speed and might save dropping the gear early and dragging it in. However speedbrakes with flaps out does cause increased airframe vibration and isn't recommended with larger flap settings which is probably why they were retracted as the flaps were extended further.
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How far out were you? If you have to use speedbrakes on approach, then you need to be grounded until you can plan your descent more accurately.
I have never ever heard or seen any pilot use speedbrakes during approach. It's not recommended by Airbus or most aircraft manufacturers.
I have never ever heard or seen any pilot use speedbrakes during approach. It's not recommended by Airbus or most aircraft manufacturers.
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Hi Aviophage,
Either you've not lived long enough or don't do CDA approaches. ATC often offer a short cut, with speed reductions. Intelligent use of speed brake may be necessary in order to be stable by 1,000 ft.
Please give me your FCOM ref for Speed brake & Flaps.
because mine says:
"SPEEDBRAKES ............................................................ .................... AS RQRD
If the pilot uses speedbrakes to increase the rate of deceleration, or to increase the rate of descent, be aware that VLS with speedbrakes fully extended, in the clean configuration may be higher than green dot speed and possibly > VFE FLAP 1.
The A/THR in speed mode, or the pitch demand in OPEN DES, will limit the speed to VLS. In this situation, the pilot should begin to retract speedbrakes upon reaching VLS + 5 kt and should select FLAP 1, as soon as speed is below VFE NEXT. He may then re-extend the speedbrakes, if necessary. The landing gear may always be extended out of sequence to aid deceleration."
Either you've not lived long enough or don't do CDA approaches. ATC often offer a short cut, with speed reductions. Intelligent use of speed brake may be necessary in order to be stable by 1,000 ft.
Please give me your FCOM ref for Speed brake & Flaps.
because mine says:
"SPEEDBRAKES ............................................................ .................... AS RQRD
If the pilot uses speedbrakes to increase the rate of deceleration, or to increase the rate of descent, be aware that VLS with speedbrakes fully extended, in the clean configuration may be higher than green dot speed and possibly > VFE FLAP 1.
The A/THR in speed mode, or the pitch demand in OPEN DES, will limit the speed to VLS. In this situation, the pilot should begin to retract speedbrakes upon reaching VLS + 5 kt and should select FLAP 1, as soon as speed is below VFE NEXT. He may then re-extend the speedbrakes, if necessary. The landing gear may always be extended out of sequence to aid deceleration."
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You seem to live in a very black and white world Aviophage.
It is common for even the most sensible and well planned descent to be thrown out the window if ATC decide to cut you short on approach (although EGLL/EGKK are usually very good at giving you track miles to go and sticking to it thats far from the norm in the rest of Europe) and I'd be surprised if you haven't been in the situation where the approach controller is asking you to keep up speed and on handover to tower you're asked to slow to minimum approach speed all the while you're trying performing a low noise/fuel efficient CDA.
No one should be planning a descent and approach with the use of speedbrake but they are there to be used if the situation changes and other means of slowing down/getting down aren't appropriate. Most manufactures don't recommend speedbrake with flaps for the reasons given it but leave it available for use if required.
Based on being in Flaps 1 config in this situation I'd hazard a guess that they were on approach in the 10-15 mile region - now if you are less than 5 miles final and still needing speedbrake, for what worth it is at that late stage, then you should be perhaps be asking how you got into that situation and thinking about bugging out.
It is common for even the most sensible and well planned descent to be thrown out the window if ATC decide to cut you short on approach (although EGLL/EGKK are usually very good at giving you track miles to go and sticking to it thats far from the norm in the rest of Europe) and I'd be surprised if you haven't been in the situation where the approach controller is asking you to keep up speed and on handover to tower you're asked to slow to minimum approach speed all the while you're trying performing a low noise/fuel efficient CDA.
No one should be planning a descent and approach with the use of speedbrake but they are there to be used if the situation changes and other means of slowing down/getting down aren't appropriate. Most manufactures don't recommend speedbrake with flaps for the reasons given it but leave it available for use if required.
Based on being in Flaps 1 config in this situation I'd hazard a guess that they were on approach in the 10-15 mile region - now if you are less than 5 miles final and still needing speedbrake, for what worth it is at that late stage, then you should be perhaps be asking how you got into that situation and thinking about bugging out.
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If you have to use speedbrakes on approach, then you need to be grounded until you can plan your descent more accurately.
I have never ever heard or seen any pilot use speedbrakes during approach. It's not recommended by Airbus or most aircraft manufacturers.
I have never ever heard or seen any pilot use speedbrakes during approach. It's not recommended by Airbus or most aircraft manufacturers.
As for the last sentence of Aviophages statement; Sorry, but I have never heard such nonsense (and not seen in ANY of the manuals I have had the pleasure to study in my carreer).
Regards,
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Precisely the reason I rarely look on these boards anymore.
I suspect these folk either post through an alcoholic haze or (more likely) haven't got a scooby about what they are writing (perhaps repeating what they have heard from folk who actually DO know something about jet operations)
I suspect these folk either post through an alcoholic haze or (more likely) haven't got a scooby about what they are writing (perhaps repeating what they have heard from folk who actually DO know something about jet operations)
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Thanks guys. It did feel like we'd been going slightly faster than I'd been accustomed to on previous approaches, but I'd guess that any shaking/bumping was probably weather related as we were coming through some rather grey clouds at the time! We were much further out than 5 miles and I think wazzoo is probably closer with 10-15. If we were in the hold for about 15 minutes I guess ATC were getting as many in as quickly as possible so a higher speed down to a certain level might have been necessary. Certainly as we turned off the runway I could see the usual busy line of traffic heading downwards behind us, and I'm guessing there were quite a few more above the cloud base.
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There are three issues with the use of speedbrake on the approach
1) They cause significant buffet on the tailplane (extreme at Flap 30) for which it is not 'lifed' in structural testing or design. Most airlines in my experience (737) prefer not to use them above Flap5. If you doubt me, wait until you are seated with a view of the tailplane when someone uses flaps and airbrake.
2) They increase the stall speed and make Vref no longer valid as a guide to 'safe' margins
3) Most airlines forbid their use below 1000'.
1) They cause significant buffet on the tailplane (extreme at Flap 30) for which it is not 'lifed' in structural testing or design. Most airlines in my experience (737) prefer not to use them above Flap5. If you doubt me, wait until you are seated with a view of the tailplane when someone uses flaps and airbrake.
2) They increase the stall speed and make Vref no longer valid as a guide to 'safe' margins
3) Most airlines forbid their use below 1000'.
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You'll need to be carefull on the E170/195 as you don't have speedbrakes available above Flaps 1. (<190knots) On the E190 if you're heavy and in icing you got a fight on your hands to the the speed off. So plan ahead and otherwise your escape is lowering the gear.
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Thank-you for backing me up BOAC. My airline is not fond of pilots who use the speedbrakes below 10,000ft.
To the user who has claimed I post through a drunken haze. Excuse me, like a majority of commercial pilots, I am teetotal. Do not question my aviation knowledge or experience either. I've been flying since I was 15 years old.
Like I've previously exclaimed, using speedbrakes to aid with your approach is a bad technique. If ATC cut you in for an earlier than expected approach and you're too high/fast, you can always reject their request and continue with your planned approach. Yes, you may touchdown a bit later but I don't suffer from "getthereitus".
To the user who has claimed I post through a drunken haze. Excuse me, like a majority of commercial pilots, I am teetotal. Do not question my aviation knowledge or experience either. I've been flying since I was 15 years old.
Like I've previously exclaimed, using speedbrakes to aid with your approach is a bad technique. If ATC cut you in for an earlier than expected approach and you're too high/fast, you can always reject their request and continue with your planned approach. Yes, you may touchdown a bit later but I don't suffer from "getthereitus".
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My airline is not fond of pilots who use the speedbrake below 10,000ft
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Not quite, one of our base airfields tends to keep us level at FL60 until entering their TMA bringing us 500-1000 feet above path every time. So you plan whatever you want, you'll be high anyway. So it's either AB below FL100 or put the gear down 20 miles out. I could try sideslipping 
next time but I'm not shure the cabin crew would be very fond of that.
Planning the descend and approach is not so difficult as long as ATC does not interfere too much with your plan, but if they do why not use the tools you have available.
next time but I'm not shure the cabin crew would be very fond of that.Planning the descend and approach is not so difficult as long as ATC does not interfere too much with your plan, but if they do why not use the tools you have available.
Last edited by bArt2; 25th Aug 2010 at 17:25.
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you can always reject their request and continue with your planned approach. Yes, you may touchdown a bit later but I don't suffer from "getthereitus".
Do not question my aviation knowledge or experience either. I've been flying since I was 15 years old.
If you are 40, that makes only 25 year experiences - many of us have far more. I still make mistakes but I'm still adding to my knowledge. Sounds like you've stopped learning.
Last edited by rudderrudderrat; 25th Aug 2010 at 18:02.
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I'm sorry Aviophage, I fail to see how BOAC has backed you up.
I think most who have posted so far would agree wholeheartedly with his statements.
Using speedbrakes with more than Flaps 5 (737)/Flap 1 (A320) is discouraged due to buffet and increased stall speed and never use speedbrakes below 1000' - completely agree.
But an airline thats 'not fond' of speedbrake use below 10,000..I mean come on, that's the only region you should need to use it, above 10,000 make full use of speed to get back on to profile. Below 10,000 90% of airlines and airports have speed restrictions that make the use of speedbrakes necessary when the situation changes. I would love to fly into some the airports you seem to because they sound like a breeze with no weather, ATC, other aircraft!
Planning a good idle thrust descent - definitely. Being ready to revise that plan and make full use of all the tools Boeing and Airbus have provided you when the situation changes, even better.
If you're turning down very reasonable ATC requests in a busy environment where you're not the only guy out there just because you don't want to use speedbrake, I don't blame them if they send you to the back of the approach queue to burn another tonne of fuel and turn up 20 minutes late.
I think most who have posted so far would agree wholeheartedly with his statements.
Using speedbrakes with more than Flaps 5 (737)/Flap 1 (A320) is discouraged due to buffet and increased stall speed and never use speedbrakes below 1000' - completely agree.
But an airline thats 'not fond' of speedbrake use below 10,000..I mean come on, that's the only region you should need to use it, above 10,000 make full use of speed to get back on to profile. Below 10,000 90% of airlines and airports have speed restrictions that make the use of speedbrakes necessary when the situation changes. I would love to fly into some the airports you seem to because they sound like a breeze with no weather, ATC, other aircraft!
Planning a good idle thrust descent - definitely. Being ready to revise that plan and make full use of all the tools Boeing and Airbus have provided you when the situation changes, even better.
If you're turning down very reasonable ATC requests in a busy environment where you're not the only guy out there just because you don't want to use speedbrake, I don't blame them if they send you to the back of the approach queue to burn another tonne of fuel and turn up 20 minutes late.