A320 Autoland
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 89
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From: location location
I think that this thread is a good example of why there is so much confusion over Airbus limits/performance/tech spec etc etc.
There are now so many different variants of the Airbus A320 family that comparison between any two is almost pointless.
The OP specifically referred to the A320 ( did they mean that one particular aircraft or the narrowbody family in general? who knows, except the OP?).
We have now had input from drivers of the A318 through to A340-600, the only technical similarity between which is that they begin with the letter A!
My para 1 reply is clearly a little ambiguous as somehow shortfuel seems to think that I believe an overweight landing is a NORMAL operation.
Reread it again shortfuel and you''ll see that I am trying to simplify the myriad of weight limits (certified,recommended,demonstated,nav charge weight limit,particular airport PCN limit etc) to NORMAL ops or ABNORMAL ops.
Incidentally in the sim (what level?
) the aircraft carries out beautiful autolands way above MLM and well outside crosswind limits flap 3 or full.
There are now so many different variants of the Airbus A320 family that comparison between any two is almost pointless.
The OP specifically referred to the A320 ( did they mean that one particular aircraft or the narrowbody family in general? who knows, except the OP?).
We have now had input from drivers of the A318 through to A340-600, the only technical similarity between which is that they begin with the letter A!
My para 1 reply is clearly a little ambiguous as somehow shortfuel seems to think that I believe an overweight landing is a NORMAL operation.
Reread it again shortfuel and you''ll see that I am trying to simplify the myriad of weight limits (certified,recommended,demonstated,nav charge weight limit,particular airport PCN limit etc) to NORMAL ops or ABNORMAL ops.
Incidentally in the sim (what level?
) the aircraft carries out beautiful autolands way above MLM and well outside crosswind limits flap 3 or full.
Last edited by charlies angel; 26th August 2010 at 14:23.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 94
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From: Third sand dune on the left
Hello again,
I think we are all getting side tracked from the issue. To answer Charlie angel's post, my question was asked on the Airbus A320 ONLY not the A318, A319 and other Airbus series aircraft.
But the info provided by other posts was of great reference to me, so again thank you all.
Again the reason to my question is that the region I operate in, LVOPS is a common occurrence in the winter. Also we do have those medical emergencies or incase of unforeseen scenarios, such as an uncontrollable fire, where an immediate return to the field is required.
If you read my previous post, I asked Airbus technical representitives and as usual I got the standard airbus response.
"For A320 aircraft the automatic landing has been certified for weights up to the maximum landing weight.
However autoland studies and flight tests in overweight conditions have been conducted in order to make sure that there was no unexpected misbehaviour of the automatic landing system when the aircraft exceeds the certified maximum landing weight, and that an autoland in that condition was safe, although all certification criteria have not been met. Nevertheless, only average conditions have been flight tested.
Therefore, AIRBUS does not recommend to perform an autoland while in overweight."
In a nutshell, its your neck when poo hits the fan. Standard Airbus
I think we are all getting side tracked from the issue. To answer Charlie angel's post, my question was asked on the Airbus A320 ONLY not the A318, A319 and other Airbus series aircraft.
But the info provided by other posts was of great reference to me, so again thank you all.
Again the reason to my question is that the region I operate in, LVOPS is a common occurrence in the winter. Also we do have those medical emergencies or incase of unforeseen scenarios, such as an uncontrollable fire, where an immediate return to the field is required.
If you read my previous post, I asked Airbus technical representitives and as usual I got the standard airbus response.
"For A320 aircraft the automatic landing has been certified for weights up to the maximum landing weight.
However autoland studies and flight tests in overweight conditions have been conducted in order to make sure that there was no unexpected misbehaviour of the automatic landing system when the aircraft exceeds the certified maximum landing weight, and that an autoland in that condition was safe, although all certification criteria have not been met. Nevertheless, only average conditions have been flight tested.
Therefore, AIRBUS does not recommend to perform an autoland while in overweight."
In a nutshell, its your neck when poo hits the fan. Standard Airbus
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: NE of LON VOR
I would never autoland in an emergency.
Did United 232 autoland when they had an emergency? No.
Did Cactus 1549 autoland when they had an emergency? No.
If the wx conditions were below that for an ILS cat II approach, I would divert to the nearest suitable airport.
Did United 232 autoland when they had an emergency? No.
Did Cactus 1549 autoland when they had an emergency? No.
If the wx conditions were below that for an ILS cat II approach, I would divert to the nearest suitable airport.
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,270
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From: UK
Hi Aviophage,
Assume you've just taken off where RVRs are 200 m, sky obscured, LVPs in force etc:
What would you do with a cabin fire or smoke warning in the hold, or Engine Fire warning that doesn't extinguish or any ECAM warning which says "LAND ASAP"?
Assume you've just taken off where RVRs are 200 m, sky obscured, LVPs in force etc:
What would you do with a cabin fire or smoke warning in the hold, or Engine Fire warning that doesn't extinguish or any ECAM warning which says "LAND ASAP"?
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 615
Likes: 8
From: Middle England
Aviophage.
Could you do us all a favour and tell us who you work for please? That way I can avoid being in the back when you're up front and I'll give you plenty of room if we happen to be in the same FIR.
Thank you.
Could you do us all a favour and tell us who you work for please? That way I can avoid being in the back when you're up front and I'll give you plenty of room if we happen to be in the same FIR.
Thank you.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
From: Between Vedex and Murag!
Originally Posted by Aviophage
I would never autoland in an emergency.
Did United 232 autoland when they had an emergency? No.
Did Cactus 1549 autoland when they had an emergency? No.
Did United 232 autoland when they had an emergency? No.
Did Cactus 1549 autoland when they had an emergency? No.
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 991
Likes: 128
From: big green wheely bin
Aviophage,
What would you do if that emergency involved the complete distruction of the outer pain of your cockpit windows. Would you still try a manual landing while not being able to see out of the window.
"never" is a very big word, and not one that a pilot should be using.
What would you do if that emergency involved the complete distruction of the outer pain of your cockpit windows. Would you still try a manual landing while not being able to see out of the window.
"never" is a very big word, and not one that a pilot should be using.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 34
From: London,England
Don't let him bother you, he is all over pprune like a rash at the moment spouting total rubbish. Hopefully he will get bored fairly quickly and go back to flightsim which I suspect is about as close as he has ever got to an airline flightdeck, in the meantime add him to your ignore list.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
From: location location
MITS
The books appear to be written in such a ( deliberate ) haphazard,contradictory way that I am sure Airbus Industries are happy that they can escape virtually any legal challenge to "blame the aircraft ". There is always a word or sentence that can be dissected to mean 2 or 5 things!
EU OPS is the same as was JAR ops and Pans OPS and individual States laws.
When the unwanted fickle finger of fate illuminates your flightdeck in an emergency its time to take a deep breath,stay calm and do your best using all available resources.
In the aftermath and enquiry sit in a quiet room and only pick out the bits from the FCOM that explains you and your teams decision making as to how you saved the day by using your superior skill and knowledge
The books appear to be written in such a ( deliberate ) haphazard,contradictory way that I am sure Airbus Industries are happy that they can escape virtually any legal challenge to "blame the aircraft ". There is always a word or sentence that can be dissected to mean 2 or 5 things!
EU OPS is the same as was JAR ops and Pans OPS and individual States laws.
When the unwanted fickle finger of fate illuminates your flightdeck in an emergency its time to take a deep breath,stay calm and do your best using all available resources.
In the aftermath and enquiry sit in a quiet room and only pick out the bits from the FCOM that explains you and your teams decision making as to how you saved the day by using your superior skill and knowledge
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
From: In the rain
A320 Autoland light
Apologies for dredging up an old thread - my question is slightly different but still relates to autoland on the 320.
If landing in CAT1 (or better) conditions with a CAT1 MDA which is based on baro altimeter will the red autoland light come at MDA -100ft on if you attempt to do an autoland? No system / signal failures, just minima set as MDA rather than DH.
On the aircraft of the people I used to work for this would invariably happen, and SOP to carry out an automatic landing off a CAT1 approach was to delete the MDA and change it to DH100 when visual with the runway.
Just did an autoland with the new company on similarly aged/equipped 320s and we happily landed with the MDA set all the way.
Very confused now. Did the old operator fiddle with something in the software to bring up the light, do IAE and CFM busses (both Thales v3 equipped) behave differently or am I going mad?
S.
If landing in CAT1 (or better) conditions with a CAT1 MDA which is based on baro altimeter will the red autoland light come at MDA -100ft on if you attempt to do an autoland? No system / signal failures, just minima set as MDA rather than DH.
On the aircraft of the people I used to work for this would invariably happen, and SOP to carry out an automatic landing off a CAT1 approach was to delete the MDA and change it to DH100 when visual with the runway.
Just did an autoland with the new company on similarly aged/equipped 320s and we happily landed with the MDA set all the way.
Very confused now. Did the old operator fiddle with something in the software to bring up the light, do IAE and CFM busses (both Thales v3 equipped) behave differently or am I going mad?
S.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
From: Between Vedex and Murag!
The AUTOLAND warning light activation conditions are pretty clear (FCOM 4.05.70 p15). This system does not take any input/entry information from the MCDU.
As long as CAT2 or more is displayed on your FMA, your aircraft is AUTOLAND capable whatever you have inserted in the MDA/DH field (for auto-callout purpose).
The only reasons I can think of is the poor ILS beam quality and/or the topography of the ground before the threshold that could lead to an AUTOLAND warning but not an MDA entry.
The RWY you used with your previous employer, was it a CAT2/3 RWY?
Furthermore, Airbus recommends to use CAT2/3 procedures even when carrying out an AUTOLAND in CAT1 conditions, i.e. setting the DH and visual references acquired by the CAT1 approach MDA.
Am not aware of any change on the AUTOLAND warning function, but it does not mean it has not evolved since 1988!
As long as CAT2 or more is displayed on your FMA, your aircraft is AUTOLAND capable whatever you have inserted in the MDA/DH field (for auto-callout purpose).
The only reasons I can think of is the poor ILS beam quality and/or the topography of the ground before the threshold that could lead to an AUTOLAND warning but not an MDA entry.
The RWY you used with your previous employer, was it a CAT2/3 RWY?
Furthermore, Airbus recommends to use CAT2/3 procedures even when carrying out an AUTOLAND in CAT1 conditions, i.e. setting the DH and visual references acquired by the CAT1 approach MDA.
Am not aware of any change on the AUTOLAND warning function, but it does not mean it has not evolved since 1988!
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,338
Likes: 1
From: Uh... Where was I?
With heavy smoke in the cockpit (other than Marlboro) nobody gives a damn for limitations nor cares about losing his licence. If one manages to set the FMGS to carry out an autoland, then one can just open the window (below 200 kt) and watch the airplane to what it is suposed to do.
It is an option anyone might choose, and would always be legitimate, since we are talking about a critical condition and a captain can depart from regulations for the sake of safety if he deems so.
It is an option anyone might choose, and would always be legitimate, since we are talking about a critical condition and a captain can depart from regulations for the sake of safety if he deems so.
