Co Pilot PICUS time
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Co Pilot PICUS time
Hi all,
I have a question regarding a Co Pilot claiming PICUS time.
Can a co-pilot claim PICUS time in the following scenario.
Commander does the take off, shortly after hands control to the co-pilot, who then flies the aircraft making all decisions under the supervision of the commander, without the commander having to intervene. Shortly before landing the co-pilot hands control back to the commander.
Although the co-pilot didn't do the take off and landing, he/she does act as PIC enroute under supervision of the commander.
Therefore can he/she claim PICUS time for the time he/she was flying the aircraft?
Thanks
I have a question regarding a Co Pilot claiming PICUS time.
Can a co-pilot claim PICUS time in the following scenario.
Commander does the take off, shortly after hands control to the co-pilot, who then flies the aircraft making all decisions under the supervision of the commander, without the commander having to intervene. Shortly before landing the co-pilot hands control back to the commander.
Although the co-pilot didn't do the take off and landing, he/she does act as PIC enroute under supervision of the commander.
Therefore can he/she claim PICUS time for the time he/she was flying the aircraft?
Thanks
I would say, tentatively, yes! As long as the copilot is 1st pilot qualified on type. If not qualified, and the captain is an instructor on type, then the copilot may be able to claim the hours as dual (under instruction).
But this is only my best guess.
And this thread is in the wrong forum.
But this is only my best guess.
And this thread is in the wrong forum.
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I cant speak your neck of the woods, but over here if you claimed PIC time without doing landings or T/Os I think you would be charged with falsifying flight time, and rightly so.These days I fly a twin, the young lady in the right seat on revenue flights does most of the work and when flying the aircraft {including T/O and Ldg} logs it as PIC, under supervision, on Non Rev legs she is left seat and logs it as PIC.When I flew the heavy stuff we had a very formal system of when F/Os could log PIC under supervision, not used much as we hired most with 5000 hours or more, thus no need to log time for upgrades.
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From pprune archive:
My understanding is that you only meet the when all of the duties and functions
of PIC on that flight were carried out bit when your are sitting on the left seat with an instructor on the right seat during your upgrade course to Captain.
Ok, from CAA LASOR's (hope its ok to quote it)
5. PICUS (Pilot-in-command under supervision):
Provided that the method of supervision is acceptable
to the Authority, a Co-pilot may log as PIC flight time
flown as PICUS, when all of the duties and functions
of PIC on that flight were carried out, such that the
intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was
not required. (For further details please refer to
Co- Pilot paragraph at the end of this Appendix).
5. PICUS (Pilot-in-command under supervision):
Provided that the method of supervision is acceptable
to the Authority, a Co-pilot may log as PIC flight time
flown as PICUS, when all of the duties and functions
of PIC on that flight were carried out, such that the
intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was
not required. (For further details please refer to
Co- Pilot paragraph at the end of this Appendix).
of PIC on that flight were carried out bit when your are sitting on the left seat with an instructor on the right seat during your upgrade course to Captain.
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Yes you may
You are allowed to do your PICUS training from the left seat, and the captain does not have to be a line training captain. You can log all the flight time as picus, who has the controls at t/o or landing does not matter.
But, it has to be agreed and approved before flight commences that you are flying as PICUS.
This "method of supervision" is acceptable to my country's authority (JAA-land).
Remember that you are only allowed to fly as many PICUS hours as you require to obtain 250 hours PIC/PICUS for your ATPL.
Have fun!
But, it has to be agreed and approved before flight commences that you are flying as PICUS.
This "method of supervision" is acceptable to my country's authority (JAA-land).
Remember that you are only allowed to fly as many PICUS hours as you require to obtain 250 hours PIC/PICUS for your ATPL.
Have fun!
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Tee Emm, {Havnt seen that in a while} Yes if I kept a log book it would be logged as Co Joe, dont know if I should mention it to an ex DCA type but havnt kept a log in many years, just write in the crazy "current" requirments every so often, however on checking my logs you will be pleased to know that all my time Downunder is logged in old DCA approved log books. In Canada one gets writers cramp with just a few aircraft in the fleet, Journey Log, Flight sheets, Engine log, airframe log, Prop logs, Pilots log,Night landings logged to keep night currency, IFR Apchs for IFR currency, Im sure there are some Ive missed, Oh yeah, out of phase items and the master log in our AMO.
Only half a speed-brake
For the purpose of ATPL issue, most guys log all PF sectors as PICUS.
Commanding a flight has nothing to do with flying the aircraft - you can be the commander without even occupying a control seat. The commander is the pilot designated by the operator to care for the aircraft and passenger's safety by making a variety of safety decisions. Being designated by the Commander as "Pilot Flying" for a sector has nothing to do with ICUS.
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Oh dear me! To say this topic has been done to death a hundred times here would be an understatement. Try using the search function, and then spend the next week reading the misinformation, disinformation and misunderstandings that you'll find.
Bt succunctly, PICu/s has nothing, that is NOTHING to do with PF or PNF.
(How could it, if P1 depended on who was PF what would the Captain log when PNF?)
It requires the FO, as stated above, to perform all the functions of P1 for the entire flight without intervention...
That means it cannot be achieved without prior agreement and arragement with the Capt from the first moment of pre-flight planning as the FO clearly has to do ALL of this as P1, make ALL fuel, weather and operational decisions etc and continue to do so until the end of the flight, presumablt including post flight duties.
Logging PICu/s automatically as PF is not only incorrect but fraudulent as the basic requirements above have clearly not been met. Simply put, Parker Pen time.
That said, it seems to be what most people do, but that doesn't make it right. The UK CAA seem to turn a blind eye too, so that really renders it pointless as a valuable exercise in practicing command skills and turns it into a paperwork fudge to gain an ATPL from the RHS of an airliner.
The worry is if this fudge is employed in smaller craft to allow the pilot to gain his ATPL so as to act as Capt without having had the P1 training experience the regulators have decided is needed.
Pity.
Bt succunctly, PICu/s has nothing, that is NOTHING to do with PF or PNF.
(How could it, if P1 depended on who was PF what would the Captain log when PNF?)
It requires the FO, as stated above, to perform all the functions of P1 for the entire flight without intervention...
That means it cannot be achieved without prior agreement and arragement with the Capt from the first moment of pre-flight planning as the FO clearly has to do ALL of this as P1, make ALL fuel, weather and operational decisions etc and continue to do so until the end of the flight, presumablt including post flight duties.
Logging PICu/s automatically as PF is not only incorrect but fraudulent as the basic requirements above have clearly not been met. Simply put, Parker Pen time.
That said, it seems to be what most people do, but that doesn't make it right. The UK CAA seem to turn a blind eye too, so that really renders it pointless as a valuable exercise in practicing command skills and turns it into a paperwork fudge to gain an ATPL from the RHS of an airliner.
The worry is if this fudge is employed in smaller craft to allow the pilot to gain his ATPL so as to act as Capt without having had the P1 training experience the regulators have decided is needed.
Pity.
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I met a guy flying for a major freight company in the US and he was bragging that he had 35,000 hours, almost all PIC. He was wearing F/O bars. He was 30 years old. A small discussion showed that he logged all his flying as PIC since he had an ATP (after you get 1500 hours you can get an ATP in 48 hours, ground and flight tests included). He logged all his time, off-duty sitting in the back, or in the bunk, and I would not be surprised if he logged his dead-head sectors as well.
Point is that the FAA would accept this as logged, nobody would question it. The Asian carriers are worse (maybe not SIA) because they simply don't understand the complexities of the rules.
Only the Brits and the other Euro-centred countries even worry about such a thing. When competing on the open market for jobs, you will always be pipped by those who don't care for the rules.
Point is that the FAA would accept this as logged, nobody would question it. The Asian carriers are worse (maybe not SIA) because they simply don't understand the complexities of the rules.
Only the Brits and the other Euro-centred countries even worry about such a thing. When competing on the open market for jobs, you will always be pipped by those who don't care for the rules.
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35000 hours at 30 years old! Did he count the time when his mom was flying on holidays with him still in the womb as well??
My, I have more than 15 years in the business, and about 6500 hours, maybe I don't know how to count... can the time watching airplanes take off and land at the airport fence added as well?
If it is the case, I can probably claim twice as much!
Eventually, most Parker-pen pilots show their true colors when the sh!t hits the fan, and REAL experience is required to deal with the problems at hand...
Experience doesn't come from pen and paper...
Flex
My, I have more than 15 years in the business, and about 6500 hours, maybe I don't know how to count... can the time watching airplanes take off and land at the airport fence added as well?
If it is the case, I can probably claim twice as much!Eventually, most Parker-pen pilots show their true colors when the sh!t hits the fan, and REAL experience is required to deal with the problems at hand...
Experience doesn't come from pen and paper...
Flex
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For the purpose of ATPL issue, most guys log all PF sectors as PICUS.
-Which is not according to the letter of the law for logging the time, and is quite a source of amusement outside of Europe.
well if LASORS is the law (in the UK), then it is ok.
The 1500 hours flying experience [for ATPL issue] may comprise flight
time in any of the following capacities:
• as Pilot-in-Command/Solo (PIC), counted in full;
• as Pilot-under-Instruction (Dual), counted in full;
• as Co-Pilot performing under the supervision of
the Pilot-in-Command the functions and duties of
a Pilot-in-Command (PIC U/S) counted in full. For
licence issue, confirmation of such flight time will be
required. This can either take the form of a letter from
the operating company or certification of each flight
within the pilot’s logbook by the Pilot-in-Command.
• as Co-Pilot (P2), counted in full;
time in any of the following capacities:
• as Pilot-in-Command/Solo (PIC), counted in full;
• as Pilot-under-Instruction (Dual), counted in full;
• as Co-Pilot performing under the supervision of
the Pilot-in-Command the functions and duties of
a Pilot-in-Command (PIC U/S) counted in full. For
licence issue, confirmation of such flight time will be
required. This can either take the form of a letter from
the operating company or certification of each flight
within the pilot’s logbook by the Pilot-in-Command.
• as Co-Pilot (P2), counted in full;
so this paragraph (from LASORS) differentiates between PIC U/S and P2 time. the notes at the start of my logbook (also a CAA document) tell me to put PIC U/S time in the P1 column. what else is there to say? QED.
perhaps the pedants should write to the CAA, because all people are doing is reading the instructions and then following them.
would i ever claim P1 U/S as P1 time to get a job in the future? no, because it isnt P1 time.
as someone said, logbook hours (certainly for airline ops) are not a good measure of experience or competence anyway, just a rough guide to how long a guys been around...
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Well, in the U.S......
Trying to remember the exact wording....but, essentially, if the F/O is 'appropriately rated' (in the case of an aircraft requiring a type rating, he is type rated in that aircraft)....and in the case of airline operations, where an ATP is required to be in command (The F/O has an ATP with the type rating.).......and, he is the 'sole manipulator of the controls'.....then, in the U.S. he can, in fact, log the time as "Pilot-in-Command" when he is the flying pilot.
I'm totally ignorant with regard to the regulations in other parts of the world, but in the U.S., this is the case.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
I'm totally ignorant with regard to the regulations in other parts of the world, but in the U.S., this is the case.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
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boofhead...
The freight guy you mention is full of XXXX. (To say it in a nice way, he is incorrect.)
Again, I don't know about the regulations in Europe....I confess ignorance....but, in the U.S.....well, please see my above post.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
Again, I don't know about the regulations in Europe....I confess ignorance....but, in the U.S.....well, please see my above post.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
well if LASORS is the law (in the UK), then it is ok.
as Co-Pilot performing under the supervision of
the Pilot-in-Command the functions and duties of
a Pilot-in-Command (PIC U/S) counted in full.
the Pilot-in-Command the functions and duties of
a Pilot-in-Command (PIC U/S) counted in full.
so this paragraph (from LASORS) differentiates between PIC U/S and P2 time.
.. and the rest of the crew (if you carry cabin crew) are briefed that you are to be treated on those sectors as commander (under supervision) (ie all contact about problems in the cabin will be directed to you) and the two pilots have included in their brief that you will be giving the orders for non-normal occurrences,\ and the company is aware, and has given permission (either specifically, or in the Operations Manual), that this is how the operation will be conducted and this formal agreement has occurred at the beginning of the day and at the end of the day has been certified by including the Commander's signature in your log book? 
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Heavens! This is hard work.
OFDM
There it is in plain English. EXACTLY as I said.
"performing ... the functions and duties...of pilot in command"
Where does it say anything about manipulating the controls?
Why then does it differentiate that definition from P2?
It does so because just acting as Co-pilot (P2) has nothing to do with role-playing as Captain (P1us) which is an entirely differernt category. You've just proven youself incorrect.
I don't understand how or why you imagine it would be possible or desireable to act as P1 on cetain sectors only. If you briefed for P1us at the start of a multi sector day you'd be P1us all day, wouldn't you. Just as you would on a single sector day operated by the Captain.
I think you need to re-read this and sort out the logic. In your current state of mis-understanding you should not be making snide remarks about "pedants". This is nothing to do with pedantry, merely being right or wrong. And on this topic you just ain't right. Or, for that matter, pedantic.
Mr Smith.
What do you call logging that you are not entitled to if not fraudulent?
Inventive? Optional? Opportunistic?
If you haven't done it, you can't log it. If you do log it, then...
OFDM
The 1500 hours flying experience [for ATPL issue] may comprise flight
time in any of the following capacities:
• as Pilot-in-Command/Solo (PIC), counted in full;
• as Pilot-under-Instruction (Dual), counted in full;
• as Co-Pilot performing under the supervision of
the Pilot-in-Command the functions and duties of
a Pilot-in-Command (PIC U/S) counted in full. For
licence issue, confirmation of such flight time will be
required. This can either take the form of a letter from
the operating company or certification of each flight
within the pilot’s logbook by the Pilot-in-Command.
• as Co-Pilot (P2), counted in full;
time in any of the following capacities:
• as Pilot-in-Command/Solo (PIC), counted in full;
• as Pilot-under-Instruction (Dual), counted in full;
• as Co-Pilot performing under the supervision of
the Pilot-in-Command the functions and duties of
a Pilot-in-Command (PIC U/S) counted in full. For
licence issue, confirmation of such flight time will be
required. This can either take the form of a letter from
the operating company or certification of each flight
within the pilot’s logbook by the Pilot-in-Command.
• as Co-Pilot (P2), counted in full;
"performing ... the functions and duties...of pilot in command"
Where does it say anything about manipulating the controls?
Why then does it differentiate that definition from P2?
It does so because just acting as Co-pilot (P2) has nothing to do with role-playing as Captain (P1us) which is an entirely differernt category. You've just proven youself incorrect.
I don't understand how or why you imagine it would be possible or desireable to act as P1 on cetain sectors only. If you briefed for P1us at the start of a multi sector day you'd be P1us all day, wouldn't you. Just as you would on a single sector day operated by the Captain.
I think you need to re-read this and sort out the logic. In your current state of mis-understanding you should not be making snide remarks about "pedants". This is nothing to do with pedantry, merely being right or wrong. And on this topic you just ain't right. Or, for that matter, pedantic.
Mr Smith.
What do you call logging that you are not entitled to if not fraudulent?
Inventive? Optional? Opportunistic?
If you haven't done it, you can't log it. If you do log it, then...