Logging PIC & CO PILOT Time Query

[virginpilot1087]

Got a question reguarding logging time again.

I am currently flying 737 as F/O and logging time as Co-Pilot in my JAA log book, speaking to a pal yesterday he says he logs Co-Pilot when he is Pilot Monitoring and when he flys his sector he logs it as PIC.

I thought it was always Co-Pilot unless your a Captain but you log it seperatly in total flight time to build towards unfreezeing ATPL.

anyone know for def which is the right procedure for this?

[Loony_Pilot]

Its P1/s when you're pilot flying, but you need to have the logbook countersigned, or at least have your company state that all P1/s time logged is thus.
Its P2 when you're copilot not flying
and PIC when you're the Capt, whether you're PF or PNF.

Ask the CAA or JAA...

[Clandestino]

If you are employed as first officer/co-pilot;

If you are only RHS qualified;

You can log PIC time only when your P1 is incapacitated.

However, you can log P1/US or PiCUS if you don't have 250 hr PiC required to unfreeze the ATPL. Whether logbook entry has to be countersigned, depends on your company or local CAA.

And if your local CAA is incompetent/understaffed/not caring you can log anything and get away with it. There might be some problems when you're switching employers, though.

[virginpilot1087]

Thanks, thats what i was thinking, pic is the captain as he is the commander and i am the co-pilot which is how i log it, and it all go's in total flight time, i have enough pic time from instructing for unfreezing atpl so ill keep logging it that way.

[GlueBall]

All well and good as long as you don't come knocking at another airline's door claiming that you have 1000hrs "PIC" in a 737 when in fact all your time was that as copilot [being paid as copilot] operating the controls from the right hand seat without command responsibilities.

[Loony_Pilot]

Ok, from CAA LASOR's (hope its ok to quote it)

5. PICUS (Pilot-in-command under supervision):
Provided that the method of supervision is acceptable
to the Authority, a Co-pilot may log as PIC flight time
flown as PICUS, when all of the duties and functions
of PIC on that flight were carried out, such that the
intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was
not required. (For further details please refer to
Co- Pilot paragraph at the end of this Appendix).

search for "picus" in LASORS if you need more clarification

[Maude Charlee]

I think it's a moot point for the unfreezing of an ATPL, as the CAA seem to be quite willing to accept P1s for airline FOs as equivalent to PIC time in this respect, provided it is countersigned or confirmed by the employer as has been mentioned.

[Mac74]

So once reached the 250hrs Pic time, you cannot write hours as pic as co-pilot, am I right?
Thanks Mac74.

[parabellum]

Think you may be a bit confused Mach74. If you are employed as a co-pilot/first officer by your company you can never log PIC, (Incapacitation excepted), you can only log PICUS or P1s of you have flown the aircraft yourself, without intervention from the captain on the grounds of safety.

[Mac74]

Thanks parabellum.

But what I understand is that you can only log PICUS time until in possesion of an atpl.
So in the logbook all time flown as copilot, whether it is pilot flying or not, will be P2.
Is this correct?

[parabellum]

Now you have got me! I got my ATPL before the 'frozen' one came into being and logged every leg I flew from the RHS as P1/US until I got my command.
I'm not sure if it is a JAA rule that you should not log P1/US after you have obtained sufficient to unfreeze your licence or if it is a case of you don't have to. I suspect the latter, but honestly don't know.

[Mac74]

I searched the following document http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/607069.pdf
But I couldn't find anything specific about logging before and after obtaining an ATPL. I guess, you can log those flight hours as PICUS, like you are suggesting. However only for one's own administration, it doesn't have a function to do so.
Mac74

[Kempus]

This question always bothers me as I'm not sure if I've been doing it right or wrong for the past year.

When I started I was told to log it in the pic box when I was pf but always put the captains name in the "name of pic" box.

I was told picus was only for training flights towards license issue.

I haven't had any of the entries counter signed as was told that my employer would give clarification of total flying hours if I leave so there was no need.

I would only apply for jobs stating that I had "x"hrs multicrew as an FO.

kempus