F, S, green dot speeds
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
From: Russia
F, S, green dot speeds
Many our instructors say that it is prohibited to fly on speeds less than F, S, green dot. I actually didnt find any place when it is written. Any thoughts?
Con respecto
Con respecto
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,658
Likes: 0
From: Up north
Basically these speed gives you protection in turns (g loads) as they are dynamic speeds dependent on weight etc. There is nothing really prohibiting you from flying below these speeds, with wings level at least. Remember, you are still protected by Vls, Alpha prot. etc. When having gusty conditions with max flap speeds close to min managed speed (f, s, green dot) I regularly select a speed below these speeds and allow the speed "fall" below before selecting flaps, this to protect myself from flap over speeds. Otherwise you will have the auto thrust adding thrust as soon as you get close to your minimum managed speed and it can sometimes be difficult to get the flaps out with a comfortable margin on the speed.
I have heard the same arguments before and I am sure we will see them here as well!
CP
I have heard the same arguments before and I am sure we will see them here as well!
CP
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,270
Likes: 0
From: UK
Hi Pensador,
I agree with CP - there is a clue in the FCTM page A027 P1/2.
"In the QRH, the line, "SPEED SEL............VFE NEXT -5 kt" is designed to allow the crew to configure the aircraft for landing whilst controlling the speed in a safe manner. This procedure may involve reducing speed below the manoeuvring speed for the current configuration which is acceptable provided the speed is kept above VLS. The speed reduction and configuration changes should preferably be carried out wings level."
I agree with CP - there is a clue in the FCTM page A027 P1/2.
"In the QRH, the line, "SPEED SEL............VFE NEXT -5 kt" is designed to allow the crew to configure the aircraft for landing whilst controlling the speed in a safe manner. This procedure may involve reducing speed below the manoeuvring speed for the current configuration which is acceptable provided the speed is kept above VLS. The speed reduction and configuration changes should preferably be carried out wings level."
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
Likes: 9
From: Blighty
Technicly - and obviously, you are safe down to VLS. F or S indicates the speed at which you will be safe to raise the flaps or slats with no danger of VLS coming up to meet or even overtake your current speed. In most cases, VLS comes no where near F or S, but try a heavyweight departure out of a 6000' elevation airfield at ISA+20 retracting in the turn and in turbulence. One of our destinations is often like this - there's a fair amont of "Pucker Factor" involved as VLS shoots up to meet you!
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
From: Russia
thanks everybody for your comments! As fo me F and S speeds, in addition, designe for the wrong flaps leaver moovement. Another words this is additional margine in case of mistaken flap retraction.
Con respecto!
Con respecto!
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 584
Likes: 5
From: Alps
May I ask why you would deliberately fly below F, S and Green Dot speeds in selected speed?
Managed speed does not do it, so why take away the protection, all it needs is a distraction (ATC, Cabin...) or some turbulence to find yourself close to VLS and possibly triggering Alpha Floor shortly followed by tea and biscuits in the fleet office to explain your actions...
As stated above saves the puckering...
Managed speed does not do it, so why take away the protection, all it needs is a distraction (ATC, Cabin...) or some turbulence to find yourself close to VLS and possibly triggering Alpha Floor shortly followed by tea and biscuits in the fleet office to explain your actions...
As stated above saves the puckering...
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,658
Likes: 0
From: Up north
Really? So if you are far out from the field (coming in for landing) and ATC requests a speed 10kts or so below your managed speed, you would consider it "unprofessional" to select the speed and keep the aircraft in clean config? I would say that it is perhaps not "unprofessional" but at least uneconomical to select flaps too far out unless necessary. Having said that, if my colleague is new-ish on type or just does not feel comfortable with it then there is no discussion - ask for the flaps. Personally I would tend not to though, however its not a competition.
Keep it safe, know the aircraft's abilities and limitations and more importantly - Know your own abilities and limitations.
CP
Keep it safe, know the aircraft's abilities and limitations and more importantly - Know your own abilities and limitations.
CP
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,693
Likes: 161
From: home
CP
Out of interest do you know what is more economical flap 1 at S speed or flap 0 at green dot -10. My gut feeling would be that they are not that far different.
I'm surprised no ones mentioned selecting flap 2 then back to 1 on approach!
Out of interest do you know what is more economical flap 1 at S speed or flap 0 at green dot -10. My gut feeling would be that they are not that far different.
I'm surprised no ones mentioned selecting flap 2 then back to 1 on approach!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,658
Likes: 0
From: Up north
No, difficult to find any exact figures, but I am sure there are people smarter than me that made the calculations and that there is substance behind our recommended procedures asking for delayed flap selections "when possible", flap 3 landings etc etc.
It sometimes surprises me though when I hear from people that you cannot/are prohibited from flying below these speeds with current configuration. That to me shows that perhaps people are not always aware of what these speeds mean and how flying above or below them effects your aircraft and the protections.
But like I said earlier, its not a competition so fly in a way that is comfortable to you and the guy next to you.
It sometimes surprises me though when I hear from people that you cannot/are prohibited from flying below these speeds with current configuration. That to me shows that perhaps people are not always aware of what these speeds mean and how flying above or below them effects your aircraft and the protections.
But like I said earlier, its not a competition so fly in a way that is comfortable to you and the guy next to you.
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
From: UK
Interesting points and all good stuff.
To re-iterate the original question, exactly where is it written that you shall not operate below these magic speeds. They are extremely useful, and as others have wriiten, give a very good clue as to how hard the wing is working, and what sort of margins you have left before things would become very interesting.
HOWEVER, top of the amber on the airbus is VLS, which is the lowest selectable speed avaible to the crew, AT THAT CONFIGURATION. Bumbling around northern europe at relatively modest weights,in an A319, there's normally a huge spread between any one of the early markers, green dot or F speed for config 1 or 2 especially, and VLS.
If fifi the wonderjet shows us exactly what that speed is, why can't we use it?
Airlines or manufactures?
Intrigued
To re-iterate the original question, exactly where is it written that you shall not operate below these magic speeds. They are extremely useful, and as others have wriiten, give a very good clue as to how hard the wing is working, and what sort of margins you have left before things would become very interesting.
HOWEVER, top of the amber on the airbus is VLS, which is the lowest selectable speed avaible to the crew, AT THAT CONFIGURATION. Bumbling around northern europe at relatively modest weights,in an A319, there's normally a huge spread between any one of the early markers, green dot or F speed for config 1 or 2 especially, and VLS.
If fifi the wonderjet shows us exactly what that speed is, why can't we use it?
Airlines or manufactures?
Intrigued
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
Likes: 9
From: Blighty
Feather Boa.
''Dan
Retract the flaps after the turn is complete.
Saves the puckering!''
Thanks for the advice, but not an option at this airfield situated in a valley with an MSA of 20,800'. The grid MORA is over FL300. one of our more challenging destinations!
Judging from your username, I suspect you may know where this is.
''Dan
Retract the flaps after the turn is complete.
Saves the puckering!''
Thanks for the advice, but not an option at this airfield situated in a valley with an MSA of 20,800'. The grid MORA is over FL300. one of our more challenging destinations!
Judging from your username, I suspect you may know where this is.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 584
Likes: 5
From: Alps
Interesting debate...
So what are the margins and limitations then, how far below F, S or green dot would you go before selecting the next Flap setting? 5Kts, 10Kts? Could someone please provide me with a reference.
I fully appreciate that you are protected but it does not mean that you have to explore the boundaries as I said earlier what if there is a distraction or something?
CP, referring to your first post, I dont know which family Airbuses you operate but in my experience on landing you are never close to an overspeed when you are approaching S, F or green dot, unless you are close to MLW or doing an overweight landing which would only occur if you have just dumped fuel and/or in an emergency...
As Nubboy says if the jet shows you the speed why not use it...?
For sure if ATC ask me to maintain 210Kts at 30 miles and green dot is 213Kts common sense would prevail, you either fly clean at 213Kts or clean at 210Kts...
Thks for the good info
So what are the margins and limitations then, how far below F, S or green dot would you go before selecting the next Flap setting? 5Kts, 10Kts? Could someone please provide me with a reference.
I fully appreciate that you are protected but it does not mean that you have to explore the boundaries as I said earlier what if there is a distraction or something?
CP, referring to your first post, I dont know which family Airbuses you operate but in my experience on landing you are never close to an overspeed when you are approaching S, F or green dot, unless you are close to MLW or doing an overweight landing which would only occur if you have just dumped fuel and/or in an emergency...
As Nubboy says if the jet shows you the speed why not use it...?
For sure if ATC ask me to maintain 210Kts at 30 miles and green dot is 213Kts common sense would prevail, you either fly clean at 213Kts or clean at 210Kts...
Thks for the good info
Joined: Feb 1998
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,595
Likes: 0
From: Formerly of Nam
...there's a fair amont of "Pucker Factor" involved as VLS shoots up to meet you!
You can be anywhere within the hollow yellow bar as its ABOVE the speeds
where protections, bells and wistles activate. Its when your ASI enters all that
red and white crap under it that might cause you to have to think about whats
going on.
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
From: UK
Slasher, I'm not panicing, just curious.
Why can I climb, managed, below F speed all day long if I want, but not use any of the green bit between VLS and the index for the current config in the descent or cruise?
Interestingly no one has mentioned the question of speed stability, unless I've missed it.
Why can I climb, managed, below F speed all day long if I want, but not use any of the green bit between VLS and the index for the current config in the descent or cruise?
Interestingly no one has mentioned the question of speed stability, unless I've missed it.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,658
Likes: 0
From: Up north
As Nubboy says if the jet shows you the speed why not use it...?