FCU faild open. B737NG
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FCU faild open. B737NG
At climb out you get N1, N2 and EGT showing well above red line.
When you level of to deal with the problem the airplane is accelerating even with the autothrottle off, the bad engine at idel and your good engine at idel too.
What check list is the most appropriate?
When you level of to deal with the problem the airplane is accelerating even with the autothrottle off, the bad engine at idel and your good engine at idel too.
What check list is the most appropriate?
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I assume this has not happened to you, yet. If both engines are at idle and you are still accelerating, it is likely to be in ever widening circles, or competing for the Guiness record for continuous rolls.
Getting the a/c under control is No.1. Remove the problem = shutdown the bad engine. You ask for a checklist. QRH unannunciated self survival comes to mind. But for the TRE, as you mention > red line limits = severe damage.
Getting the a/c under control is No.1. Remove the problem = shutdown the bad engine. You ask for a checklist. QRH unannunciated self survival comes to mind. But for the TRE, as you mention > red line limits = severe damage.
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This did happen in the sim, and we got in to a discussion on what check list to use.
"Engine fire or severe damage or seperation" or "engine limit or surge or stall" checklists?
With both N1 and N2 way over the limit the EGT thru the roof I think this is "Severe Damage"
"Engine fire or severe damage or seperation" or "engine limit or surge or stall" checklists?
With both N1 and N2 way over the limit the EGT thru the roof I think this is "Severe Damage"
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The thrust levers was closed on both engines. The bad engine had an FCU failure so it was still producing power well above its thrust rating of 26K and we could not control it with the thrust lever.
And yes I thought we where in a dive too but no all three ALT and Airspeed indicators where in agreement. I also thought the sim must have gone bad.
And yes I thought we where in a dive too but no all three ALT and Airspeed indicators where in agreement. I also thought the sim must have gone bad.
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With those indication it seems to me you should do the Engine limit NNC.
As the QRH mentions:
movement.
From your explanation at least bullet 1,2 & 4 are applicable.
As the QRH mentions:
Condition:
One or more of these occur:
•Engine indications are abnormal
•Engine indications are rapidly approaching
or exceeding limits
•Abnormal engine noises are heard
•There is no response to thrust lever
•Engine indications are abnormal
•Engine indications are rapidly approaching
or exceeding limits
•Abnormal engine noises are heard
•There is no response to thrust lever
movement.
From your explanation at least bullet 1,2 & 4 are applicable.
At climb out you get N1, N2 and EGT showing well above red line.
When you level of to deal with the problem the airplane is accelerating even with the autothrottle off, the bad engine at idel and your good engine at idel too.
What check list is the most appropriate?
When you level of to deal with the problem the airplane is accelerating even with the autothrottle off, the bad engine at idel and your good engine at idel too.
What check list is the most appropriate?
I just don't see how the most screwed up engine in the world could exhibit all those symptoms at the same time. Something about the engine cycle seems to limit this even without a sane ECU, FADEC etc.
From a cause-effect point of view, of course you always fly the plane first and take your time about sorting out what engine is causing it. Eventually you will see that an engine is too high and you will shut it down either by its control unit or the pylon.
There is nothing bad that is going to happen to the airplane while you sort the engine out, in spite of redline this and redline that,.
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This happened in the sim. The airplane climbed like a bat out of hell and accelerated. The engine had to be shut down. I think this is something best handled by use of the " severe damage" check list.
The Engine Fire, Severe Damage or Seperation checklist that we had up until last summer said in the description of the condition:
Fire is detected in the related engine; Severe Damage which may be associated with airframe vibration and / or abnormal engine indications has
occurred; or the engine has seperated.
By this older version I am justified to go ahead with the memory items and shutdown the engine.
What constitute's severe damage?
If anybody has a good definition of Severe Damage, I would like to see it.
The Engine Fire, Severe Damage or Seperation checklist that we had up until last summer said in the description of the condition:
Fire is detected in the related engine; Severe Damage which may be associated with airframe vibration and / or abnormal engine indications has
occurred; or the engine has seperated.
By this older version I am justified to go ahead with the memory items and shutdown the engine.
What constitute's severe damage?
If anybody has a good definition of Severe Damage, I would like to see it.
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1. If the engine is still running, there is no severe damage yet, right?
2. To PREVENT sev.dmg. use the limit/surge/stall chlst.:
Condition: One or more of these occur:
•Engine indications are unusual (yes)
•Engine indications are rapidly approaching
or exceeding limits (yup)
•Unusual engine noises are heard (dunno - were there?)
•There is no response to thrust lever
movement. (yes)
Objective: To attempt to recover normal engine
operation or shut down the engine if
recovery is not possible.
On the other hand: I really do not see the problem here. The objective is to shut down the engine - why would it matter which checklist you use? Pointless discussion!
How about just telling the F/O and instructor: I am the Captain, and I decided that we had to shut down the engine. The best, and most efficient way to this was to perform the memory items for this. Even though the shutdown is not included as memory items in this particular checklist, I did it anyway because it is good airmanship and excellent judgement/captaincy etc. etc. etc.
Problem solved. Case closed.
2. To PREVENT sev.dmg. use the limit/surge/stall chlst.:
Condition: One or more of these occur:
•Engine indications are unusual (yes)
•Engine indications are rapidly approaching
or exceeding limits (yup)
•Unusual engine noises are heard (dunno - were there?)
•There is no response to thrust lever
movement. (yes)
Objective: To attempt to recover normal engine
operation or shut down the engine if
recovery is not possible.
On the other hand: I really do not see the problem here. The objective is to shut down the engine - why would it matter which checklist you use? Pointless discussion!
How about just telling the F/O and instructor: I am the Captain, and I decided that we had to shut down the engine. The best, and most efficient way to this was to perform the memory items for this. Even though the shutdown is not included as memory items in this particular checklist, I did it anyway because it is good airmanship and excellent judgement/captaincy etc. etc. etc.
Problem solved. Case closed.
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Seems like a SIM exercise used as a training tool rather than solely a checking tool - more power to the airline and/or checkie involved.
Without the books in front of me I would suggest this is more a case of Mr Boeings observation (am sure Airbus have similar observation for legal reasons if nothing else) that...."the NNChecklist cannot cover everything, sometimes checklists may have to be combined, sometimes pilot discretion to alter/amend procedures...." or similar.
So as I see the info:
- multiple (not just a single indication) of an engine in trouble;
- retarded thrust lever yet still full thrust as shown by acceleration but more importantly, substantial/excessive yaw as other engine is at idle should have been a clear indication;
- obvious FMC/EEC/Computer breakdown as high thrust with idle thrust lever position.
After quickly discussing/analysing the available info an IMMEDIATE shutdown (with proper cross-checking) is the response.
HOW you shut it down - don't care because it's an engine about to cause a huge amount of problems if you DON'T kill it.
Cheers
Without the books in front of me I would suggest this is more a case of Mr Boeings observation (am sure Airbus have similar observation for legal reasons if nothing else) that...."the NNChecklist cannot cover everything, sometimes checklists may have to be combined, sometimes pilot discretion to alter/amend procedures...." or similar.
So as I see the info:
- multiple (not just a single indication) of an engine in trouble;
- retarded thrust lever yet still full thrust as shown by acceleration but more importantly, substantial/excessive yaw as other engine is at idle should have been a clear indication;
- obvious FMC/EEC/Computer breakdown as high thrust with idle thrust lever position.
After quickly discussing/analysing the available info an IMMEDIATE shutdown (with proper cross-checking) is the response.
HOW you shut it down - don't care because it's an engine about to cause a huge amount of problems if you DON'T kill it.
Cheers
In our B737-300 simulator, the particular non-normal you describe is called Engine Malfunction Governor Failure and is selectable via the instructor panel. When training new crews the instructor demonstrates to them the symptom of the failure while on the ground.
You simply tell the crew to sit back and watch with interest the engine parameters and to take no action since this is a demonstration of what happens. With both thrust levers at idle the relevant button is selected on the instructor panel causing the thrust to rapidly increase to maximum even though the thrust levers remain closed. It is then pointed out that if this happens while on the ground taxiing or landing roll there is no time for all the SOP niceties of "I say old chap what is happening and I haven't even touched the throttles..."
The captain has to recognise the defect and immediately cut the start lever before you ground-loop with one engine at full power. If in doubt on the deck, cut both start levers as there may be no time to do the confirmation bit. According to a Boeing Discussion paper I once read this sort of defect is not a severe damage as there is no severe vibration and the engine is running normally albeit at very high thrust.
If airborne and a governor failure occurs choose your own time to cut the start lever depending if you need the power or not at the time.
Caution: Very much personal opinion only.
You simply tell the crew to sit back and watch with interest the engine parameters and to take no action since this is a demonstration of what happens. With both thrust levers at idle the relevant button is selected on the instructor panel causing the thrust to rapidly increase to maximum even though the thrust levers remain closed. It is then pointed out that if this happens while on the ground taxiing or landing roll there is no time for all the SOP niceties of "I say old chap what is happening and I haven't even touched the throttles..."
The captain has to recognise the defect and immediately cut the start lever before you ground-loop with one engine at full power. If in doubt on the deck, cut both start levers as there may be no time to do the confirmation bit. According to a Boeing Discussion paper I once read this sort of defect is not a severe damage as there is no severe vibration and the engine is running normally albeit at very high thrust.
If airborne and a governor failure occurs choose your own time to cut the start lever depending if you need the power or not at the time.
Caution: Very much personal opinion only.
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If anybody has a good definition of Severe Damage, I would like to see it.
N1 & N2 turning, EGT decreasing --> Engine flame-out
N1 and/or N2 = 0 --> Engine severe damage
No engine indications --> Engine seperation
Centaurus
Exactly
I would hope that this description matches other simulator programming as well, without adding in "severe damage" drills at the same time
In our B737-300 simulator, the particular non-normal you describe is called Engine Malfunction Governor Failure and is selectable via the instructor panel. When training new crews the instructor demonstrates to them the symptom of the failure while on the ground.
You simply tell the crew to sit back and watch with interest the engine parameters and to take no action since this is a demonstration of what happens. With both thrust levers at idle the relevant button is selected on the instructor panel causing the thrust to rapidly increase to maximum even though the thrust levers remain closed. It is then pointed out that if this happens while on the ground taxiing or landing roll there is no time for all the SOP niceties of "I say old chap what is happening and I haven't even touched the throttles..."
The captain has to recognise the defect and immediately cut the start lever before you ground-loop with one engine at full power. If in doubt on the deck, cut both start levers as there may be no time to do the confirmation bit. According to a Boeing Discussion paper I once read this sort of defect is not a severe damage as there is no severe vibration and the engine is running normally albeit at very high thrust.
You simply tell the crew to sit back and watch with interest the engine parameters and to take no action since this is a demonstration of what happens. With both thrust levers at idle the relevant button is selected on the instructor panel causing the thrust to rapidly increase to maximum even though the thrust levers remain closed. It is then pointed out that if this happens while on the ground taxiing or landing roll there is no time for all the SOP niceties of "I say old chap what is happening and I haven't even touched the throttles..."
The captain has to recognise the defect and immediately cut the start lever before you ground-loop with one engine at full power. If in doubt on the deck, cut both start levers as there may be no time to do the confirmation bit. According to a Boeing Discussion paper I once read this sort of defect is not a severe damage as there is no severe vibration and the engine is running normally albeit at very high thrust.
I would hope that this description matches other simulator programming as well, without adding in "severe damage" drills at the same time
If anybody has a good definition of Severe Damage, I would like to see it.
Any engine failure condition is subjective to what's really happening or about to happen internal to the engine, and very subjective for anybody but an engine expert to try and decode.
Many of the discussion points on the internet tend to get into this subjectivity to understand what and why you can or should choose between choices of actions.
In my view the "severe damage" checklist is a general action expected and as in most cases should be followed according to your training.
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Thank's for the response.
There is an aspect to this particular SIM training event that I have not told.
When I asked for the Severe Damage Memory Items, the FO refused to do them. Even after I told him I was the Captain and I would take the blame if it was wrong. I asked for this 4 times and the situation had gotten more and more out of hand while the FO was refusing to support me. I ended up flying single pilot.
I shut down the engine myself and then we got into a discussion.
That is why I'm asking for some input.
I think when things get out of hand, you do what needs to be done to get the airplane back under control. The two checklist's are identical from step 1 through step 3, only the Sever Damage Memoty Items will shut down the engine right away.
We got into a very strange situation, thanks to the FO not following my command.
There is an aspect to this particular SIM training event that I have not told.
When I asked for the Severe Damage Memory Items, the FO refused to do them. Even after I told him I was the Captain and I would take the blame if it was wrong. I asked for this 4 times and the situation had gotten more and more out of hand while the FO was refusing to support me. I ended up flying single pilot.
I shut down the engine myself and then we got into a discussion.
That is why I'm asking for some input.
I think when things get out of hand, you do what needs to be done to get the airplane back under control. The two checklist's are identical from step 1 through step 3, only the Sever Damage Memoty Items will shut down the engine right away.
We got into a very strange situation, thanks to the FO not following my command.
I asked for this 4 times and the situation had gotten more and more out of hand while the FO was refusing to support me. I ended up flying single pilot.
While there are usually two sides to each story, nevertheless if your requested actions were correct then the F/O warrants immediate suspension from duties and an inquiry constituted. Even though it is only a simulator in this discussion, the sequence should be treated as if it were the real thing - otherwise you may as well all pack up and go home.
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"Severe Damage" is a euphemism applicable only to the simulator training
Seems to me none of these conditions can be labelled "euphemisms" applicable only to simulator training.
I may have misunderstood the point you are trying to make. But your quoted definition doesn't quite add up especially since a memory item in the Boeing 737 non-normal checklist is headed Engine Fire, Severe Damage or Separation. The Condition statement states: Fire is detected in the associated engine; severe damage which may be associated with airframe vibration and/or abnormal engine indications has occured; or the engine has separated.
Seems to me none of these conditions can be labelled "euphemisms" applicable only to simulator training.
Seems to me none of these conditions can be labelled "euphemisms" applicable only to simulator training.
Note the wording "may-be". When all is said and done and you're able to walk around the engine after landing, you may consider all the observations and symptoms and categorize them as "severe damage". While in the air, any sense that the symptoms could fall under "severe damage" even though not confirmed or annuciated as such, guide you to a specific check-list action.
