Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

Fly Runwway Track

Wikiposts
Search
Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

Fly Runwway Track

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 13th Dec 2009, 12:35
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: usa
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Fly Runwway Track

Departing OMSJ recently tower cleared us for takeoff and amended our clearance to "fly runway track" or something along those lines. Did they actually mean the track of the runway course or is this another way to say fly runway heading?
noperf is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2009, 12:47
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: hyderabad
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
fly ground track

In some countries like Australia, u are expected to fly a ground track. Possibly cause of the fmc usage. Just as an input , during a G/A the AP maintains the last ground track, so you got to have ure hdg on course on the app. any comments?
godu is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2009, 15:28
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"Fly Runway Track" means exactly that, you are required to follow the Track of the extended Runway centre-line. As noted earlier, this particularly applies in Australia, but is by no means limited to that country.

Similarly, "Fly Runway Heading" means exactly that, you are required to follow the Heading of the Runway direction.

If you do not have the equipment to enable you to fly Track, your response to ATC should be "Unable to comply", their separation standards are based upon it.

Regards,

Old Smokey
Old Smokey is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2009, 16:11
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: France
Age: 69
Posts: 1,142
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
In the UK, the term 'Climb straight ahead' is also used by ATC.

This means that you must follow the runway centreline and adjust for wind.

Eck
eckhard is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2009, 18:34
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Age: 71
Posts: 3,411
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
This might be a generational thing! I can still remember by first instructor 40 years ago pointing how amateurish my take-off looked as I didn't apply crab for the wind. I was still figuring out why rudder wouldn't fix it.

It still looks, to me, very untidy to lift-off and drift downwind, not matter what the ATC instruction is.

GF
galaxy flyer is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2009, 18:44
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The BAe 146 RJ has a function called 'TKOF TRK'. Passing 80kts the aircraft will use the direction in which the nose in pointing and apply that as runway track. So providing your going straight down the rwy at 80kts you'll climb out on runway track if you follow the flight directors. Very convenient on those windy days.


Any other aircraft with similar functions? (I've only flown the RJ to date)
DutchBird-757 is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2009, 18:52
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Around the world.
Age: 42
Posts: 606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
DB-757, On the Airbus 320 and I assume 330/340 if you twiddle the heading knob before you roll, once you're airborne you will be in runway track mode. You would then need to select (pull on the knob) heading mode if that is what you want (you can preselect the heading before you roll if required).

Cheers.
tom775257 is online now  
Old 13th Dec 2009, 19:37
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In the UK, the term 'Climb straight ahead' is also used by ATC.

This means that you must follow the runway centreline and adjust for wind.
In the past, a couple degrees of drift didn't make much difference to ATC. However, these days it seems that anything more than 5' (1.5 M) deviation is cause for alarm, so the UK's "climb straight ahead" is needlessly confusing.

Most of us know how to "fly runway heading" and "fly runway track." What is the official CAA definition of "climb straight ahead"? If there is none, it should not be used, unless ATC doesn't care one way or the other...
Intruder is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2009, 03:18
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 4,787
Received 7 Likes on 3 Posts
PANSOPS requires you to maintain runway track (ie drift corrected) if "Runway Track" or "Runway Heading" is asked for. TERPS requires the non drift corrected heading to be flown.

TERPS airfields are North, Central and South America, Japan, Taiwan and Korea (except ICN and GMP). PANSOPS are everyone else, including OMSJ.

As mentioned, some aircraft will maintain runway track, such as the Airbus FBW types where the FMA is actually RWY TRK. The 744's I used to fly knew where you where and applied the relavant procedure.

This has been done to death before - try a search.
Dan Winterland is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2009, 07:05
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 1A
Posts: 8,552
Received 73 Likes on 42 Posts
The BAe 146 RJ has a function called 'TKOF TRK'. Passing 80kts the aircraft will use the direction in which the nose in pointing and apply that as runway track. So providing your going straight down the rwy at 80kts you'll climb out on runway track if you follow the flight directors. Very convenient on those windy days.
It works very well in the RJ. The 717 has a similar system but goes to Heading when airborne and very quickly slides off the extended CL at the slightest hint of changing wind. WOFTAM. The pilot has to pull TRK to make it stay "maintaining runway track".
Capn Bloggs is online now  
Old 14th Dec 2009, 07:34
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
PANSOPS requires you to maintain runway track (ie drift corrected) if "Runway Track" or "Runway Heading" is asked for. TERPS requires the non drift corrected heading to be flown.
I admit I haven't checked personally (don't have the copies), but was told in another discussion that both PANS-OPS and PANS-ATM (Doc. 4444) says specifically:

Correct for known or estimated wind except when:
- being radar vectored
- cleared "runway heading"
172_driver is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2009, 08:47
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Up North UK
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Many years ago as we backtracked the runway at a downtown airport in Northern Ireland, we were told "After departure climb straight ahead on the runway heading". I asked if he meant straight ahead or maintain the runway heading ... the response: "Yes, yes, climb straight ahead. On the runway heading."
Pontius's Copilot is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2009, 09:10
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"Track" and "heading" are quite different and should be understood by both controllers and pilots.

I always specified a definite heading because I and the pilot knew exactly what was meant and I could take wind into account to ensure that the aeroplane went where I wanted it to go. E.g "Cleared for take-off, fly heading 250 degrees".
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2009, 09:37
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Europe
Age: 65
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In Perth, WA, the term "maintain runway track" was introduced to allow the departures controller to cancel and aircraft's SID on the ground and fly the runway track.

This was necessary as a number of the SIDs are designed to take aircraft around the Pearce restricted areas and have multiple VNAV and a number of heading changes. When the RAAF are not there we needed to be able to track shorten and let aircraft do what they needed to on departure.

ATC may not radar vector an aircraft below the MVA, if the aircraft cannot do its own terrain clearance e.g. by night or poor vis/low cloud. So a little creative thinking, all the radar SIDs are based on firstly maintain runway track (PH2 e.g.) using the obs clearance and tracks in the radar SIDs, we were able to introduce "cancel SID, maintain runway track.." for the 03 deps north and the 21 deps west.

Also this allows us to comply with noise abatement procedures and transition the aircraft from runway track to either direct tracking to the next waypoint or onto a heading.
ozineurope is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2009, 09:49
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Uh... Where was I?
Posts: 1,338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Unambiguous. That is how all instructions should be.

To me, heading is heading and track is track. End of story.
The FMS departure procedures, when flown in LNAV, contain both track and heading legs, as in the published ones. In the first, track is maintained. In the latter, heading is maintained regardless of wind.

Doing one way or the other may seem quite irrelevant most of the times, but in a strong crosswind day with paralel runways or a nearby airport or some noise sensitive area it is relevant to do it in the correct manner.
Microburst2002 is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2009, 10:45
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Let's get back to the original question.

Originally Posted by noperf
Departing OMSJ recently tower cleared us for takeoff and amended our clearance to "fly runway track" or something along those lines. Did they actually mean the track of the runway course or is this another way to say fly runway heading?
As always, the phraseology used is critical. Unfortunately, if you can't accurately quote the clearance given in your question, how on earth can we discuss what was actually meant? Having said that, I really cannot understand why it has prompted all this discussion.
  • Fly Runway Heading after take-off, means fly the QFU (magnetic alignment) of the runway as a heading after take-off (i.e. do not correct for drift),
  • Fly Runway Track, or Maintain Runway Centreline after take-off both mean exactly that, i.e. fly a heading which causes you to track the runway extended centreline (i.e. do correct for drift).

I have to say that, in over 40 years of flying, I've never had a problem with this. As always, if there is any ambiguity in a clearance, you should clarify exactly what is meant before you accept it.


JD
Jumbo Driver is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2009, 11:12
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,982
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Discussed previously:-

Maintain Runway Heading
fireflybob is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2009, 21:23
  #18 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: usa
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The ILS 27 at EHAM has a missed approach requirement to maintain runway track. This isn't an RNAV approach. How is this to be done?
noperf is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2009, 21:59
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 716
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
PANSOPS requires you to maintain runway track (ie drift corrected) if "Runway Track" or "Runway Heading" is asked for.
Negative!
Correct for known or estimated wind except when:
- being radar vectored
- cleared "runway heading"
is correct.


Wrt track straight ahead after an ILS approach;
You could, although not completely by the book, use the localiser back beam, or fly the same heading as you had on the approach, as the wind is likely to be similar on the missed approach as on the final approach. Also, at least in Norway, since all IFR aircraft are required to have RNAV over FL95, you would indeed have a track readout in most aircraft, or the ability to create a phantom point as an extension of the runway, to give you (although somewhat crude) track guidance. You are allowed to do it as long as PRNAV is not required, too...
bfisk is offline  
Old 22nd Dec 2009, 00:03
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Smogsville
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Our company manual has the following:

If a SID or Departure Clearance specifies ‘Maintain Runway Heading’ it is implied that a drift correction will be applied in order to maintain the runway track.

Exceptions − USA, Canada and Australia require that Runway Heading be maintained without drift correction.

So in a Boeing deselect LNAV and depart with TOGA to maintain runway track.

or in the USA, CAN, AUS select HDG SEL on the ground or @ 400' AGL to fly HDG.
SMOC is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.