bird strike
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bird strike
hi every body, any technical support regarding bird strike after t/o. Always thought :
-continue if no damage
-come back if damage.
but could not find written proc for that.
thanks for sharing your knowledge.
-continue if no damage
-come back if damage.
but could not find written proc for that.
thanks for sharing your knowledge.
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Hey,
What about "Common sense"...
You lost an engine after T/O on a plane supposed (and certified) to fly with 2 engines...The dammage is obvious..because you lost 50% of your thrust..
Do you really need a written procedure to determine what should be the best course of action..???
For sure, you have to determine a lot of parameters to prepare for a immediate return to the runway you just left..but this is our job..No ??
What about "Common sense"...
You lost an engine after T/O on a plane supposed (and certified) to fly with 2 engines...The dammage is obvious..because you lost 50% of your thrust..
Do you really need a written procedure to determine what should be the best course of action..???
For sure, you have to determine a lot of parameters to prepare for a immediate return to the runway you just left..but this is our job..No ??
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roljoe,
With due respect, I think the OP was most likely not referring to the most extreme case. As you say, obviously if you suffer an engine failure or sustain obvious damage on takeoff, you'll most likely not continue to destination, but neither will you necessarily return to the departure airfield or use the same runway at that airfield. There are many things to consider.
The question (in my opinion) is asking what to do if you suspect, or even have it confirmed that you hit birds on departure, but have no abnormal indications or handling characteristics as a result. Basically, there are no hard and fast rules. There are a number of factors to consider, but ultimately the crew have to make a decision based on what information they have. It's also perfectly possible to suffer a bird strike without even knowing it, and discover it on the next sectors walk around.
With due respect, I think the OP was most likely not referring to the most extreme case. As you say, obviously if you suffer an engine failure or sustain obvious damage on takeoff, you'll most likely not continue to destination, but neither will you necessarily return to the departure airfield or use the same runway at that airfield. There are many things to consider.
The question (in my opinion) is asking what to do if you suspect, or even have it confirmed that you hit birds on departure, but have no abnormal indications or handling characteristics as a result. Basically, there are no hard and fast rules. There are a number of factors to consider, but ultimately the crew have to make a decision based on what information they have. It's also perfectly possible to suffer a bird strike without even knowing it, and discover it on the next sectors walk around.
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Follow your SOPs.
But, if your airline doesn't have a spare a/c and crew at your departure airport and the damage is not threatening, consider continuing and reporting the strike on finals at destination.
This way the paperwork will be OK and the Pax get to have their hols. Only problem is if the strike is identified as a species not native to your destination.
Caribbean Penguin?
Sir George Cayley
But, if your airline doesn't have a spare a/c and crew at your departure airport and the damage is not threatening, consider continuing and reporting the strike on finals at destination.
This way the paperwork will be OK and the Pax get to have their hols. Only problem is if the strike is identified as a species not native to your destination.
Caribbean Penguin?
Sir George Cayley
Bottums Up
Where's the common sense in presuming the aircraft has only two engines, or that a bird strike has taken out half of the engines, or that an immediate re-land is required?
From the multitude of bird strikes I've experienced, it is rare to know one has gone through the engine, most have been found on the post flight inspection.
The only written guidance I have is that after a bird strike, an engineering clearance is required. In the absence of any indications that an engine may have suffered damage, my inclination is to continue to destination IF engineering assistance is available and IF after assessing all the information I have, I deem it prudent to do so.
From the multitude of bird strikes I've experienced, it is rare to know one has gone through the engine, most have been found on the post flight inspection.
The only written guidance I have is that after a bird strike, an engineering clearance is required. In the absence of any indications that an engine may have suffered damage, my inclination is to continue to destination IF engineering assistance is available and IF after assessing all the information I have, I deem it prudent to do so.
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@bicha;
in my local, a bird strike is an mandatory occurence report, and company policy is that an inspection is carried out by engineering + entry made in the techlog etc upon conpletion of the sector.
i suppose that statement means that if you can complete the sector safely then those are your post landing sops.
but if, to quote "You lost an engine after T/O on a plane supposed (and certified) to fly with 2 engines...The dammage is obvious..because you lost 50% of your thrust..
Do you really need a written procedure to determine what should be the best course of action..???"
then youre going to be doing all that anyway once you are (hopefully) safe on ground, disregard the 'common sense' harping.
in my local, a bird strike is an mandatory occurence report, and company policy is that an inspection is carried out by engineering + entry made in the techlog etc upon conpletion of the sector.
i suppose that statement means that if you can complete the sector safely then those are your post landing sops.
but if, to quote "You lost an engine after T/O on a plane supposed (and certified) to fly with 2 engines...The dammage is obvious..because you lost 50% of your thrust..
Do you really need a written procedure to determine what should be the best course of action..???"
then youre going to be doing all that anyway once you are (hopefully) safe on ground, disregard the 'common sense' harping.
I thought that suspect bird strike events were covered by the FCOM and based on specifics of equipment type and experience. Generalizations are never going to cover subjective judgements.
This thread could probably go further if the question was about a specfic equipment type (including engines) along with the applicable FCOM paragraphs.
As far as mandatory reporting, this catch-all is also subjective. Most bird strikes go unreported because the symptoms are not overt and the pilots don't take the time to write up "might-haves". Where symptoms are involved requiring actions most of these strikes are reported by the crew. Many evidences of strikes are found on the ground after the flight. Thus the issue to me is crew response to symptoms and not necessaily bird caused.
This thread could probably go further if the question was about a specfic equipment type (including engines) along with the applicable FCOM paragraphs.
As far as mandatory reporting, this catch-all is also subjective. Most bird strikes go unreported because the symptoms are not overt and the pilots don't take the time to write up "might-haves". Where symptoms are involved requiring actions most of these strikes are reported by the crew. Many evidences of strikes are found on the ground after the flight. Thus the issue to me is crew response to symptoms and not necessaily bird caused.
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An interesting discussion. The three issues to address are damage assessment, decision making and reporting.
The first issue, damage assessment, is the most difficult to address. Unlike mechanical faults that are in many cases addressed by on-board fault warning systems and clearly defined SOP's, bird strike damage assessment can be very subjective. Even if a bird is definitely known to have been ingested into an engine, in-flight determination of damage is difficult. Engine instruments are not necessarily a reliable diagnostic tool. There are many cases of bird ingestion that results in engine damage that does not show up on indication systems or is "latent" and does not become apparent until later in the flight or on subsequent flights. The only effective method to assess engine damage is inspection on the ground by qualified maintenance personnel and with a boroscope, if there is any suspicion that the bird(s) have passed through the compressor/turbine. Damage to other aircraft parts can also be tough to assess. Windscreen and airframe damage may not appear to have caused damage, but actually has. Control surfaces on Fly By Wire Aircraft may be damaged and be fluttering, but this may not be detected by the crew. In a nutshell, post bird strike damage assessment is difficult and a conservative approach must be taken. One thing to do is to try and get information from the departure airport if the strike occurred on takeoff. In most cases they can find the remains and give you an idea what you hit and how many. If you hit something big, or lots of small ones, then continuing may not be a good idea.
Now to decision making after a bird strike; what should I do? Again, to many variables to define a simple SOP. Where is the damage? What is my flight route (ETOPS)? What are the weather considerations? If I return for landing am I over max landing weight? What repair facilities are at my destination or diversion airport? Once again, no simple answer.
Reporting is straightforward. The first thing to do is report the strike to the local ATC facility. At an airport they pass this information to Wildlife Control who can check for remains to help with the damage assessment and check for other birds and remove them. For the longer term analysis most countries either have their own bird strike report forms or use the ICAO bird strike report form. Most of the forms can be downloaded on line. Please take the time to fill these out as completely as possible. Many people think that nothing can be done to deal with bird strikes, which is completely incorrect. Detailed information on strikes helps to determine many details that can be used to manipulate local habitat and modify Wildlife Control Program procedures and operating times to reduce the likelihood of re-occurrence.
Sorry there are no simple answers to what on the surface appears to be a simple question.
There is lots of information available on the Transport Canada website, the International Bird Strike Committee website and many other local state bird strike committee websites.
The first issue, damage assessment, is the most difficult to address. Unlike mechanical faults that are in many cases addressed by on-board fault warning systems and clearly defined SOP's, bird strike damage assessment can be very subjective. Even if a bird is definitely known to have been ingested into an engine, in-flight determination of damage is difficult. Engine instruments are not necessarily a reliable diagnostic tool. There are many cases of bird ingestion that results in engine damage that does not show up on indication systems or is "latent" and does not become apparent until later in the flight or on subsequent flights. The only effective method to assess engine damage is inspection on the ground by qualified maintenance personnel and with a boroscope, if there is any suspicion that the bird(s) have passed through the compressor/turbine. Damage to other aircraft parts can also be tough to assess. Windscreen and airframe damage may not appear to have caused damage, but actually has. Control surfaces on Fly By Wire Aircraft may be damaged and be fluttering, but this may not be detected by the crew. In a nutshell, post bird strike damage assessment is difficult and a conservative approach must be taken. One thing to do is to try and get information from the departure airport if the strike occurred on takeoff. In most cases they can find the remains and give you an idea what you hit and how many. If you hit something big, or lots of small ones, then continuing may not be a good idea.
Now to decision making after a bird strike; what should I do? Again, to many variables to define a simple SOP. Where is the damage? What is my flight route (ETOPS)? What are the weather considerations? If I return for landing am I over max landing weight? What repair facilities are at my destination or diversion airport? Once again, no simple answer.
Reporting is straightforward. The first thing to do is report the strike to the local ATC facility. At an airport they pass this information to Wildlife Control who can check for remains to help with the damage assessment and check for other birds and remove them. For the longer term analysis most countries either have their own bird strike report forms or use the ICAO bird strike report form. Most of the forms can be downloaded on line. Please take the time to fill these out as completely as possible. Many people think that nothing can be done to deal with bird strikes, which is completely incorrect. Detailed information on strikes helps to determine many details that can be used to manipulate local habitat and modify Wildlife Control Program procedures and operating times to reduce the likelihood of re-occurrence.
Sorry there are no simple answers to what on the surface appears to be a simple question.
There is lots of information available on the Transport Canada website, the International Bird Strike Committee website and many other local state bird strike committee websites.
Last edited by Canuckbirdstrike; 9th Dec 2009 at 21:22. Reason: Speeling & grammar
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Interesting thread.
In my experience this a very grey area depending on aircraft type, bird type, nature of strike, and engineering support at destination.
Big bird, big strike on departure is a definite return in my book.
Small flocking birds .. Swifts and Starlings pose another problem altogether :
one may have taken an obvious hit but in fact suffered several.
All to often one is not even aware of a strike until the walk around prior to the next sector ... one dead swift hanging off a gear leg for example.
In this case a call or ACARS to engineering is a wise move : they can at least give guidance as to what needs looking at properly before departure, or better still arrange for a tame engineer to take a look.
On my type a small feathered friend going through an engine core is accompanied by an unmistakable stench through the air conditioning !
That case will always need looking at properly (Borascope) and that dictates where you go.
That's obviously just a rule of thumb, but I hope it contributes something to the discussion.
TR
Big bird, big strike on departure is a definite return in my book.
Small flocking birds .. Swifts and Starlings pose another problem altogether :
one may have taken an obvious hit but in fact suffered several.
All to often one is not even aware of a strike until the walk around prior to the next sector ... one dead swift hanging off a gear leg for example.
In this case a call or ACARS to engineering is a wise move : they can at least give guidance as to what needs looking at properly before departure, or better still arrange for a tame engineer to take a look.
On my type a small feathered friend going through an engine core is accompanied by an unmistakable stench through the air conditioning !
That case will always need looking at properly (Borascope) and that dictates where you go.
That's obviously just a rule of thumb, but I hope it contributes something to the discussion.
TR
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I hear too much drama over a few words "bird strike" and not enough emphasis on doing what needs to be done. Sure take a look at your instruments "not much more than you should be doing anyways", do not let it distract you from flying your aircraft and if by chance your SOP says DECLARE AN EMERGENCY because of tweety bouncing off your screen it's ATB time.
I recovered a classic 742 with JT9D-A's or J's on her and found easily 30% of #3 engines fan blades missing and teradyctle bones sticking out of the nose cowl. Boys in the cockpit had nothing in the book. Did remember a slight vibration @T/O thrust but it went away as they retarded to climb settings.
Old boy Sully lands one in the drink and the fever starts over the result of a freak accident, with no human loss.
I recovered a classic 742 with JT9D-A's or J's on her and found easily 30% of #3 engines fan blades missing and teradyctle bones sticking out of the nose cowl. Boys in the cockpit had nothing in the book. Did remember a slight vibration @T/O thrust but it went away as they retarded to climb settings.
Old boy Sully lands one in the drink and the fever starts over the result of a freak accident, with no human loss.
