B-727 rate of descent
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B-727 rate of descent
Hi guys,
To those of you who have been lucky enough to have flown the B-727,
what would be the rate of descent with full flaps, gear down and power off?
To those of you who have been lucky enough to have flown the B-727,
what would be the rate of descent with full flaps, gear down and power off?
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An excessive rate of descent that would trigger Modes 1 and 2 of the GPWS system and eventually Mode 5 as you descend below the glide slope.
Actually we did it in the airplane above 10,000' as a demonstration maneuver during maintenance acceptance flights. As I recall, it was in excess of 3,500 fpm. During maintenance acceptance flights, we would extend the flaps to 40 degrees via the alternate flap extension system, while the normal extension was limited to 30 degrees. Again, that was at a pretty light weight as we burned off most up to the point we got to the alternate flap extension portion of the flight.
Actually we did it in the airplane above 10,000' as a demonstration maneuver during maintenance acceptance flights. As I recall, it was in excess of 3,500 fpm. During maintenance acceptance flights, we would extend the flaps to 40 degrees via the alternate flap extension system, while the normal extension was limited to 30 degrees. Again, that was at a pretty light weight as we burned off most up to the point we got to the alternate flap extension portion of the flight.
beachbumflyer;
You dont' say what pitch attitude, but at 5deg ND in the configuration stated, about what captjns said.
However, at 5deg NU in the same config, it's about 16,000fpm down in a 727...
Lovely airplane but you never, ever cut the power above about 10feet RA...
You dont' say what pitch attitude, but at 5deg ND in the configuration stated, about what captjns said.
However, at 5deg NU in the same config, it's about 16,000fpm down in a 727...
Lovely airplane but you never, ever cut the power above about 10feet RA...
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while the normal extension was limited to 30 degrees.
Otherwise mentioned data are about right. Dropped like a stone...
Lovely plane
All of the hush kits that I've seen (FedEx, Quiet Wing and Valsan) got rid of flaps 40 in the mid 90s to meet Stage III noise standards on the approach. Less sheet metal in the breeze=less thrust to maintain glideslope=less noise.
Our VSIs only went to 6000 fpm and it took very little effort to peg them. I did one gear down ferry and when it was time to start down, it worked out to less than one mile forward per every thousand feet down v. the standard three miles per thousand.
Our VSIs only went to 6000 fpm and it took very little effort to peg them. I did one gear down ferry and when it was time to start down, it worked out to less than one mile forward per every thousand feet down v. the standard three miles per thousand.
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All of the hush kits that I've seen (FedEx, Quiet Wing and Valsan) got rid of flaps 40 in the mid 90s to meet Stage III noise standards...
Last edited by captjns; 27th Sep 2009 at 14:52.
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And with Raisbeck, you are now limited to 28° flaps, so your approach speed is a couple of knots faster, so landing distance is longer or lower payload for a given runway. About 3,500 pounds on a 6,000 foot wet runway at sea level if I remember correctly.
Thrust off at the 20' RA call will work just fine, with a slight flare then push onto the runway. Might be different with 40° flap though. Such as this flight where power was chopped too early.
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 727-92C N18479 Yap Airport, Western Caroline Islands (YAP)
Thrust off at the 20' RA call will work just fine, with a slight flare then push onto the runway. Might be different with 40° flap though. Such as this flight where power was chopped too early.
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 727-92C N18479 Yap Airport, Western Caroline Islands (YAP)
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well, B-727 in landing configuration in proper altitud you can descent arround 6000 f/m or more beautiful airplane you can do a lot of manuvers and be always inside of the margin of security.
toby.
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I spent 8 years of on the old 727. Boeing quit building jets when they ended the 727 production line
.
You could land the -100 like a light twin. Over the numbers, chop the power, flare, and grease it on constistently. Never had to worry about CG either
.
.You could land the -100 like a light twin. Over the numbers, chop the power, flare, and grease it on constistently. Never had to worry about CG either
.
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Once during a recurrency session we had finished all of the requirements for the recurrency and had about 30 minutes left until the session was over. The sim instructor said that he wanted us to try something, it was not part of the training and it would not counted against us if we failed to perform the maneuver. My partner and I said sure, why not.
The instructor put us over the Outer Maker for 25R at LAX. Speed was 250kts IAS, configuration clean and had us at 10,000 feet. Then he said, land straight in, no turns and then he unfroze the sim.
I made the landing, about a third way down the runway, but we still made it.
The first thing I did was raise the spoilers, at the same time I called gear down and then told my partner in crime in the right seat to put the flaps down on speed all the way to flaps 30. I could see that we still needed more drag, so I reversed all three engines. That did the trick. The IVSI was of course pegged full down. The tricky part was the timing to come out of reverse to slow the rate of descent to a manageable level prior to touch down.
Then my partner and I swapped seats and he actually had to stow the spoilers and add thrust to get to the runway, but he cheated. The first thing he did was go into reverse, then spoilers, gear and so on.
Now I really don't know if that would work in the actual aircraft and I for one never wanted to be in the position to have to find out. Course we did bend the rules a bit, like you cannot have the spoilers out and any flaps extension at all and it is certainly not recommended to deploy the reversers in flight.
But it was fun.
However, the answer to the question is with flaps 40, flight idle and gear down you peg the IVSI, so I really cannot tell you what the actual rate of descent is.
Oh, we were authorized to remove the flaps 40 block for operational reasons and had to do so on a few occasions. A couple of things on flaps 40 landings, one is that it takes a lot and I mean a lot of power to stay on the glide path with 40 degrees of flaps, when you pull the power off you land even if you are still ten feet in the air, it feels as if the aircraft drops straight down and you don't use up much runway landing.
I really enjoyed my 7,000 of hours flying the 727. When I win the big lottery I'm going to buy one to run around the world in.
The instructor put us over the Outer Maker for 25R at LAX. Speed was 250kts IAS, configuration clean and had us at 10,000 feet. Then he said, land straight in, no turns and then he unfroze the sim.
I made the landing, about a third way down the runway, but we still made it.
The first thing I did was raise the spoilers, at the same time I called gear down and then told my partner in crime in the right seat to put the flaps down on speed all the way to flaps 30. I could see that we still needed more drag, so I reversed all three engines. That did the trick. The IVSI was of course pegged full down. The tricky part was the timing to come out of reverse to slow the rate of descent to a manageable level prior to touch down.
Then my partner and I swapped seats and he actually had to stow the spoilers and add thrust to get to the runway, but he cheated. The first thing he did was go into reverse, then spoilers, gear and so on.
Now I really don't know if that would work in the actual aircraft and I for one never wanted to be in the position to have to find out. Course we did bend the rules a bit, like you cannot have the spoilers out and any flaps extension at all and it is certainly not recommended to deploy the reversers in flight.
But it was fun.
However, the answer to the question is with flaps 40, flight idle and gear down you peg the IVSI, so I really cannot tell you what the actual rate of descent is.
Oh, we were authorized to remove the flaps 40 block for operational reasons and had to do so on a few occasions. A couple of things on flaps 40 landings, one is that it takes a lot and I mean a lot of power to stay on the glide path with 40 degrees of flaps, when you pull the power off you land even if you are still ten feet in the air, it feels as if the aircraft drops straight down and you don't use up much runway landing.
I really enjoyed my 7,000 of hours flying the 727. When I win the big lottery I'm going to buy one to run around the world in.
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I really enjoyed my 7,000 of hours flying the 727. When I win the big lottery I'm going to buy one to run around the world in
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How about two flights. First one heavy takeoff on a 30° day with a couple of knots tailwind and max thrust. The only sound as the thrust came up was the air conditioning airflow increase. A long, long takeoff roll and rotation with the end of the runway in close view and mains leaving the ground with 1,000' left. Careful not to strike the tail, 10° max until clear of the runway then 15°.
Airborne with only the sound of the wind in the cockpit and the trim wheel spinning rapidly mixed in with slow speed trim as the aircraft hangs in the air with your noise abatement thrust. It must be quiet for the folks below because it is so quiet inside. In the big turn through 180° of heading change while retracting flaps trying to maintain the right pitch attitude for a positive rate of climb while not exceeding the maximum flap extension speed for that selection of flaps/slats(taking forever to retract) but staying above the minimum allowable speed. Finally clean and able to accelerate.
No flows because the F/E does it all for you. Checklist, company calls, weather, logbook. Rate of climb through 20,000' is only 500 fpm, how are you ever going to get to 290, but you do. It is noisy inside now. A nice relaxing cruise and then descent for landing at max landing weight on a 6,000 foot runway.
Oops, are you too high, in fact very high. No problem, your little friend is the handle beside you extending 10 big panels to 45° and after all, if you really need to, the gear comes down at 270. So what if you were 340 knots at 20 miles...or less.
But now the flaps are coming out. The big trim wheels clicking away as you slow down. Those sleek swept wings are going to almost come apart as the flaps are selected, creating almost a full half circle of camber in order to change the mach .84 cruise speed to as slow as 110 knots on final at light weights.
Flaps 2° seems to take forever with only 4 of 14 LED's on each wing extending and you wanting more drag now. Flaps 5° takes just as long with all Kruegers and slats now extended. The rest of the flaps extend quickly and fortunately you can go down and slow down at the same time. It all seems to come together at 1,000 feet as you bring the power up and hold your pitch attitude and speed with frequent minor adjustments of thrust for the turbulence. Didn't someone say that more modern planes adjust thrust automatically? Roll response for turbulence is spritely on final with four ailerons and spoilers.
In the flare now with power off, controlling for a bit of a crosswind with what now seems to be a more trucklike response. Just a slight check and then push forward to plant it at the thousand foot markers. The elevator still very effective if the nose is coming down too fast, you grab the spoilers and three reverse to modulate near max. And reverse thrust actually does something for you beside make noise on this aircraft. The F/E is holding the thrust levers closed and ready to keep your hand from pulling too much reverse.
Taxiing into the 90° turn to the gate with the aircraft's long body and mains way back there, the nose is brought well past the lead in line in order for the mains to line up. Then the flight deck swings back to the centre of the lead in line. You look at the wing tip to make sure it is clear but can barely see it. Later, walking by the engines reveals no shortage of oil drips. The lower rudder half blown over by the wind but the upper half aligned with the tail because a B pump is on. And why does that B pump make such an annoying noise.
Then a short flight empty on a cold day, it climbs like a rocket on rotation and departure with the VSI pegged. Things are happening fast but the F/E tosses the bug card up and has the ATIS and company calls done. Just a quick brief and you are on the way down and before you know it, on vectors and slowing down as you hand fly at slower and slower speeds. 160 knots now, clean with a nose high attitude of 6 or 7 degrees, maybe more as you turn onto final. It still seems odd to be so nose high in order to maintain level flight. Then you configure on the glide with the gear coming down by the marker with its loud air noise.
A long runway so a touch of extra thrust to try and grease it on to show off, then KaBang. Oh well, you've seen worse.
Airborne with only the sound of the wind in the cockpit and the trim wheel spinning rapidly mixed in with slow speed trim as the aircraft hangs in the air with your noise abatement thrust. It must be quiet for the folks below because it is so quiet inside. In the big turn through 180° of heading change while retracting flaps trying to maintain the right pitch attitude for a positive rate of climb while not exceeding the maximum flap extension speed for that selection of flaps/slats(taking forever to retract) but staying above the minimum allowable speed. Finally clean and able to accelerate.
No flows because the F/E does it all for you. Checklist, company calls, weather, logbook. Rate of climb through 20,000' is only 500 fpm, how are you ever going to get to 290, but you do. It is noisy inside now. A nice relaxing cruise and then descent for landing at max landing weight on a 6,000 foot runway.
Oops, are you too high, in fact very high. No problem, your little friend is the handle beside you extending 10 big panels to 45° and after all, if you really need to, the gear comes down at 270. So what if you were 340 knots at 20 miles...or less.
But now the flaps are coming out. The big trim wheels clicking away as you slow down. Those sleek swept wings are going to almost come apart as the flaps are selected, creating almost a full half circle of camber in order to change the mach .84 cruise speed to as slow as 110 knots on final at light weights.
Flaps 2° seems to take forever with only 4 of 14 LED's on each wing extending and you wanting more drag now. Flaps 5° takes just as long with all Kruegers and slats now extended. The rest of the flaps extend quickly and fortunately you can go down and slow down at the same time. It all seems to come together at 1,000 feet as you bring the power up and hold your pitch attitude and speed with frequent minor adjustments of thrust for the turbulence. Didn't someone say that more modern planes adjust thrust automatically? Roll response for turbulence is spritely on final with four ailerons and spoilers.
In the flare now with power off, controlling for a bit of a crosswind with what now seems to be a more trucklike response. Just a slight check and then push forward to plant it at the thousand foot markers. The elevator still very effective if the nose is coming down too fast, you grab the spoilers and three reverse to modulate near max. And reverse thrust actually does something for you beside make noise on this aircraft. The F/E is holding the thrust levers closed and ready to keep your hand from pulling too much reverse.
Taxiing into the 90° turn to the gate with the aircraft's long body and mains way back there, the nose is brought well past the lead in line in order for the mains to line up. Then the flight deck swings back to the centre of the lead in line. You look at the wing tip to make sure it is clear but can barely see it. Later, walking by the engines reveals no shortage of oil drips. The lower rudder half blown over by the wind but the upper half aligned with the tail because a B pump is on. And why does that B pump make such an annoying noise.
Then a short flight empty on a cold day, it climbs like a rocket on rotation and departure with the VSI pegged. Things are happening fast but the F/E tosses the bug card up and has the ATIS and company calls done. Just a quick brief and you are on the way down and before you know it, on vectors and slowing down as you hand fly at slower and slower speeds. 160 knots now, clean with a nose high attitude of 6 or 7 degrees, maybe more as you turn onto final. It still seems odd to be so nose high in order to maintain level flight. Then you configure on the glide with the gear coming down by the marker with its loud air noise.
A long runway so a touch of extra thrust to try and grease it on to show off, then KaBang. Oh well, you've seen worse.
Last edited by JammedStab; 30th Sep 2009 at 13:39.
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I used to fly the lead sleads, you know the ones I'm talking about.., the ones with the -9s on em
. Sometimes, during the summer, I thought I set a land speed records departing on El Paso's RW 22. Damn... I could have sworn I used 15,000' of the 12,020' runway available to get the jet off the ground
. By the way, I'd ask the F/O, did you get the serial number of that runway end identifier light? Phewwww off the ground but wait there's the emergency turn procedure we had to do to the left to avoid the rocks and Ciudad Juarez. The spectacular 700fpm ROC decresaed to about 400fpm to 500fpm until the turn was finished. Flaps up get 250kts over the wing, sit back and relax as by the miracle of the sky gods another successful liftoff was accomplished from KELP. Damn... shouldn't have had those Wat-A-Burgers
.
I think my all time favorite airport for the good old 72 was Tegucigalpa... no... La Romana (the old one which went through a gold course) in the Dominican Republic... no... Dominica... no... some of the GA airports.... no... oh forget it... way too many favorite airports.
. Sometimes, during the summer, I thought I set a land speed records departing on El Paso's RW 22. Damn... I could have sworn I used 15,000' of the 12,020' runway available to get the jet off the ground. By the way, I'd ask the F/O, did you get the serial number of that runway end identifier light? Phewwww off the ground but wait there's the emergency turn procedure we had to do to the left to avoid the rocks and Ciudad Juarez. The spectacular 700fpm ROC decresaed to about 400fpm to 500fpm until the turn was finished. Flaps up get 250kts over the wing, sit back and relax as by the miracle of the sky gods another successful liftoff was accomplished from KELP. Damn... shouldn't have had those Wat-A-Burgers.I think my all time favorite airport for the good old 72 was Tegucigalpa... no... La Romana (the old one which went through a gold course) in the Dominican Republic... no... Dominica... no... some of the GA airports.... no... oh forget it... way too many favorite airports
.
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What a MACHINE, guys.
con-pilot:
If I win the lottery I would buy one, too. Which one would you buy,
a -100 or a -200?
I saw a re-engined -100 with winglets in Málaga a couple of times and it
looked awesome. It looked like a Ferrari.
The good old times are over.
Well...may be not...
con-pilot:
If I win the lottery I would buy one, too. Which one would you buy,
a -100 or a -200?
I saw a re-engined -100 with winglets in Málaga a couple of times and it
looked awesome. It looked like a Ferrari.
The good old times are over.
Well...may be not...
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I saw a re-engined -100 with winglets in Málaga a couple of times and it
looked awesome. It looked like a Ferrari.
looked awesome. It looked like a Ferrari.
I used to fly the lead sleds, you know the ones I'm talking about.., the ones with the -9s on em
Also I've had a few takeoffs at Denver in the summer time with a standard -200 that made me wonder if we would clear the runway lights at the end of the runway. It seemed as if I could get up just after brake release, go back to the galley, get a cup of coffee and get back into my seat just in time to rotate.
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Sorry, forgot to answer this;
A full Valsan converted -100, with long range aux tanks in both foward and aft baggage compartments. I see no reason to be too ostentatious.
If I win the lottery I would buy one, too. Which one would you buy,
a -100 or a -200?
a -100 or a -200?
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And it's Whataburger
. It's been too long since I had a good burger. They were the greatest of the fast burger... next to In and Out Burgers. My F/E would go into fits when he found out we would be at an airport near an In and Out Burger joint.It sure was nice cruising at 280 or 290 around the TRWs in the Midwest during the summer. Hell... we could not even make it into RVSM airspace most of the times.
Jammed Stab that was brilliant. I flew the 727 for seven years, first half in the back seat and the second in the right. It was the first jet I ever flew and still my favourite.
Your remarkable description brings back many fond memories.
Your remarkable description brings back many fond memories.